Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

[Dmitry Pavlov]

What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members as
well.

I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
issue created.

If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
keep forwarding.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:

> Dmitry,
>
> What Apache member do you refer to?
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> >
> > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> removal
> > does not make any sense for me.
> >
> > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity
> from
> > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
> > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > >
> > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> > should
> > > be human-only.
> > > So separate list is the only way.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets
> > and
> > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > generated
> > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> > that
> > > we
> > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > > stuff,
> > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> incubation
> > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > > message
> > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > >
> > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > messages -
> > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > solution
> > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do
> > not
> > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> > > useful
> > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > generated
> > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > >
> > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > >
> > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> about
> > > > > updates.
> > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > > provided
> > > > as
> > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> > health.
> > > So
> > > > > for
> > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > reasonable
> > > > to
> > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> > > should
> > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > > > should
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no
> openness
> > > > would
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> > > spent
> > > > > half
> > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the
> flood
> > of
> > > > > spam
> > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> > > could
> > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> > filtering,
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> > > > should
> > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the
> > inbox.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> > development.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> > development
> > > > in
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite
> development
> > > > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce
> important
> > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a
> > > separate
> > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess
> > with
> > > no
> > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> > messages
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation
> of
> > > > emails
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then
> > PMC
> > > > > chair
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git
> > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution.
> > First,
> > > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my
> > > dev-list
> > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails
> > from
> > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things
> -
> > is
> > > > why
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that
> generated
> > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with
> > > that.
> > > > > As
> > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance.
> When
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important
> > topic
> > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely
> > this
> > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other
> > words -
> > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and
> is
> > > > very
> > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not
> important
> > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
> > messages
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed
> > because
> > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of
> > daily
> > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks /
> updates
> > > > during
> > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues
> > as
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people
> are
> > > > going
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the
> > > best
> > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA
> > (as 1
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> useful, I
> > > can
> > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> GitBox
> > &
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails
> > > first
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[oignatenko]

Personally I am comfortable with the way how things are now because mail
filters appear to work well for me.

However this thread made me curious about whether ASF has some guidance or
recommendations on that matter. I searched quite a bit and found none of
that kind. It looks like Apache leaves it at discretion of the project
community to decide whether to make separate list for automated messages or
not (which made a fairly good sense after I gave it a bit more thought, see
below).

---

After that I decided to check how other Apache projects manage their mailing
lists and as far as I can tell most active ones tend to have separate
mailing lists for automatic notifications from version control and / or
issue tracker.

I checked few top projects by number of committers from the list here:
https://projects.apache.org/projects.html?number - specifically top 8 that
had over 80 committers (for comparison, this list currently says Ignite has
38, I think we're fairly close to that league).

- https://hadoop.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
  https://openoffice.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
  http://cloudstack.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
  http://ambari.apache.org/mail-lists.html
  ---> Separate lists for commits and for issue tracker.

- http://geode.apache.org/community/#mailing-lists
  https://cordova.apache.org/contact/
  http://subversion.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
  http://hive.apache.org/mailing_lists.html
  ---> Separate list for commits.

For the sake of completeness I also sampled 4 projects having 38 committers,
just like Ignite.

- http://chemistry.apache.org/project/community.html
  ---> No lists for commits nor issues.

- http://ctakes.apache.org/mailing.html
  ---> Separate list for commits.

- http://metron.apache.org/community/
  ---> Separate list for issues.

- https://orc.apache.org/develop/
  ---> Separate lists for commits and for issue tracker.

---

Based on my personal experience this issue looks to some extent a matter of
whether we consider some barrier for entry to dev list desirable or not. I
could not actively use list until I learned how to setup mail filters
because it was difficult to find discussions to participate. On the other
hand, after setting these filters it turned out very easy.

So the question is, do we want to have dev list easier or harder to use for
"passers by" who aren't deeply involved in project. If we want to keep it
strictly at top experience level, then we better keep all automated messages
in. If we want it welcoming for any random passer by, then we better move
all automated messages somewhere else. And there are of course intermediate
approaches, we can basically tune ease of entry by picking which part of
automated messages will stay and which will go away.

---

Another important thing I learned when studying mailing lists of other
projects is we better take into account that regular automated messages may
help in keeping dev list "lively" in the slow times, when there are little
to none discussions.

At first I was tempted to propose moving all the automated messages outside
- "just like big boys do" - note how top 4 projects in my list all have
commits and issues in separate lists. But looking how smaller projects tend
to handle it differently made me wonder if maybe it is a bit more
complicated, maybe there is some difference worth considering.

And as far as I can tell, the important difference is size of community /
amount of committers. When there are lots of people actively involved in the
project it is very likely that they can permanently maintain dev list active
by natural discussions. But when the project is smaller, there is a
substantial risk that sometimes most active developers are focused on issue
tracker or github which means dev list may look abandoned (if it contains
only discussions).

If there is such a risk then keeping some (not necessarily all) automated
messages in dev list will help its subscribers and visitors avoid misleading
impression of "abandoned empty place" by showing that the project is indeed
actively maintained.

regards, Oleg



--
Sent from: http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/

[Vladimir Ozerov]

Dmitry,

I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. We
are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were pointed
to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with healthy
community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members as
> well.
>
> I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> issue created.
>
> If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> keep forwarding.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > What Apache member do you refer to?
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > >
> > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > removal
> > > does not make any sense for me.
> > >
> > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity
> > from
> > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful
> to
> > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > >
> > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> > > should
> > > > be human-only.
> > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> community
> > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> tickets
> > > and
> > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > > generated
> > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> > > that
> > > > we
> > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > > > stuff,
> > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > incubation
> > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > > > message
> > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > >
> > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > messages -
> > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > > solution
> > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I
> do
> > > not
> > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> these
> > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > >
> > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find
> it
> > > > useful
> > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > > generated
> > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> > about
> > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in
> future.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > > > provided
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> > > health.
> > > > So
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > > reasonable
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it,
> JIRA
> > > > should
> > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then
> we
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no
> > openness
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the
> emails.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once,
> who
> > > > spent
> > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the
> > flood
> > > of
> > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications,
> you
> > > > could
> > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> > > filtering,
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots,
> you
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> > > > should
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the
> > > inbox.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> > > development.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> > > development
> > > > > in
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite
> > development
> > > > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce
> > important
> > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a
> > > > separate
> > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess
> > > with
> > > > no
> > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> > > messages
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search
> results.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation
> > of
> > > > > emails
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and
> then
> > > PMC
> > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git
> > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution.
> > > First,
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my
> > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails
> > > from
> > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important
> things
> > -
> > > is
> > > > > why
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that
> > generated
> > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees
> with
> > > > that.
> > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance.
> > When
> > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important
> > > topic
> > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely
> > > this
> > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other
> > > words -
> > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages
> and
> > is
> > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not
> > important
> > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion
> this.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
> > > messages
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed
> > > because
> > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of
> > > daily
> > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks /
> > updates
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA
> issues
> > > as
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people
> > are
> > > > > going
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not
> the
> > > > best
> > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA
> > > (as 1
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > useful, I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > GitBox
> > > &
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> mails
> > > > first
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[dmagda]

Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
input is needed.

--
Denis

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dmitry,
>
> I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us. We
> are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were pointed
> to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with healthy
> community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> as
> > well.
> >
> > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > issue created.
> >
> > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > keep forwarding.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > >
> > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > removal
> > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > >
> > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> activity
> > > from
> > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful
> > to
> > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> list
> > > > should
> > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > community
> > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > tickets
> > > > and
> > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> provided
> > > > that
> > > > > we
> > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> generated
> > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > incubation
> > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> Splitting
> > > > > message
> > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > messages -
> > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > > > > solution
> > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered -
> "I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > these
> > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected
> to
> > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find
> > it
> > > > > useful
> > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> ...
> > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified
> > > about
> > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in
> > future.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > > > > provided
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> > > > health.
> > > > > So
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > > > reasonable
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it,
> > JIRA
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly,
> then
> > we
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no
> > > openness
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the
> > emails.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once,
> > who
> > > > > spent
> > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the
> > > flood
> > > > of
> > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications,
> > you
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing
> list,
> > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots,
> > you
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the
> filter
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into
> the
> > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> > > > development
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite
> > > development
> > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce
> > > important
> > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the
> list?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a
> > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute
> mess
> > > > with
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> > > > messages
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search
> > results.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the
> separation
> > > of
> > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and
> > then
> > > > PMC
> > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from
> Git
> > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a
> solution.
> > > > First,
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and
> my
> > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated
> emails
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important
> > things
> > > -
> > > > is
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that
> > > generated
> > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees
> > with
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
> importance.
> > > When
> > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be
> important
> > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most
> likely
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other
> > > > words -
> > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not
> > > important
> > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion
> > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
> > > > messages
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed
> > > > because
> > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind
> of
> > > > daily
> > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks /
> > > updates
> > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA
> > issues
> > > > as
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other
> people
> > > are
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not
> > the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates
> JIRA
> > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > > useful, I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > > GitBox
> > > > &
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> > mails
> > > > > first
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Dmitry Pavlov]

Oleg,

excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
once again.

Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:

> Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
> bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
> the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> input is needed.
>
> --
> Denis
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitry,
> >
> > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us.
> We
> > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> pointed
> > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> healthy
> > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> > as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > > issue created.
> > >
> > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > > keep forwarding.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Dmitry,
> > > >
> > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > > removal
> > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > activity
> > > > from
> > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> useful
> > > to
> > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> community
> > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> > list
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > > community
> > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > > tickets
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> accumulate
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > provided
> > > > > that
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > generated
> > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > incubation
> > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > Splitting
> > > > > > message
> > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> proposed
> > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered -
> > "I
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > > these
> > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> expected
> > to
> > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
> find
> > > it
> > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> > ...
> > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find
> these
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from
> them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these
> points.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be
> notified
> > > > about
> > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in
> > > future.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and
> just
> > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor
> community
> > > > > health.
> > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it,
> > > JIRA
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly,
> > then
> > > we
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no
> > > > openness
> > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the
> > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the
> once,
> > > who
> > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among
> the
> > > > flood
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> notifications,
> > > you
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing
> > list,
> > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from
> bots,
> > > you
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the
> > filter
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into
> > the
> > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> > > > > development
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite
> > > > development
> > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the
> > list?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages
> to a
> > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute
> > mess
> > > > > with
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search
> > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is
> waisting
> > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on
> > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the
> > separation
> > > > of
> > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change,
> and
> > > then
> > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from
> > Git
> > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a
> > solution.
> > > > > First,
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and
> > my
> > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated
> > emails
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important
> > > things
> > > > -
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that
> > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone
> agrees
> > > with
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
> > importance.
> > > > When
> > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be
> > important
> > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most
> > likely
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In
> other
> > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual
> messages
> > > and
> > > > is
> > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion
> > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not
> needed
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind
> > of
> > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks /
> > > > updates
> > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA
> > > issues
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other
> > people
> > > > are
> > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is
> not
> > > the
> > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates
> > JIRA
> > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > > > useful, I
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > > > GitBox
> > > > > &
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> > > mails
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Ivan Pavlukhin]

Oleg,

I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

>
> Oleg,
>
> excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
> once again.
>
> Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure it
> > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to spread
> > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> > input is needed.
> >
> > --
> > Denis
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dmitry,
> > >
> > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for us.
> > We
> > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > pointed
> > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > healthy
> > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf members
> > > as
> > > > well.
> > > >
> > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from Jira
> > > > issue created.
> > > >
> > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not useful to
> > > > keep forwarding.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > >
> > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira
> > > > > removal
> > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > activity
> > > > > from
> > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> > useful
> > > > to
> > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > community
> > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev
> > > list
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much
> > > > tickets
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> > accumulate
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > > provided
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > > generated
> > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > Splitting
> > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> > proposed
> > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered -
> > > "I
> > > > do
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> > expected
> > > to
> > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities,
> > find
> > > > it
> > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well
> > > ...
> > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find
> > these
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from
> > them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these
> > points.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be
> > notified
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in
> > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and
> > just
> > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor
> > community
> > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it,
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly,
> > > then
> > > > we
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no
> > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the
> > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the
> > once,
> > > > who
> > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among
> > the
> > > > > flood
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > notifications,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing
> > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from
> > bots,
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the
> > > filter
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into
> > > the
> > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite
> > > > > development
> > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce
> > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the
> > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages
> > to a
> > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute
> > > mess
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search
> > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is
> > waisting
> > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on
> > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the
> > > separation
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change,
> > and
> > > > then
> > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from
> > > Git
> > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a
> > > solution.
> > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and
> > > my
> > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated
> > > emails
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important
> > > > things
> > > > > -
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone
> > agrees
> > > > with
> > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
> > > importance.
> > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be
> > > important
> > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most
> > > likely
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In
> > other
> > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual
> > messages
> > > > and
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not
> > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion
> > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not
> > needed
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind
> > > of
> > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks /
> > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA
> > > > issues
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other
> > > people
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates
> > > JIRA
> > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
> > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from
> > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
> > > > mails
> > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

--
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin

[Sergi]

I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.

Sergi

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:

> Oleg,
>
> I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > Oleg,
> >
> > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community developers
> > once again.
> >
> > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not sure
> it
> > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> spread
> > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when their
> > > input is needed.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dmitry,
> > > >
> > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide for
> us.
> > > We
> > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > > pointed
> > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > > healthy
> > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> members
> > > > as
> > > > > well.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from
> Jira
> > > > > issue created.
> > > > >
> > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> useful to
> > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but
> jira
> > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > > activity
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not
> > > useful
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can
> continue
> > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > > community
> > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but
> dev
> > > > list
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too
> much
> > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all,
> > > > provided
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > > > generated
> > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during
> > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all
> these
> > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> > > proposed
> > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
> answered -
> > > > "I
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also
> filters
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> > > expected
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> activities,
> > > find
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ...
> well
> > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find
> > > these
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from
> > > them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these
> > > points.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be
> > > notified
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors
> in
> > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list
> and
> > > just
> > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor
> > > community
> > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages
> it is
> > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't
> have it,
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> community-friendly,
> > > > then
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so
> no
> > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as
> the
> > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the
> > > once,
> > > > > who
> > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost
> among
> > > the
> > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > > notifications,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
> mailing
> > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would
> simplify
> > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
> recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from
> > > bots,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may
> generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time,
> the
> > > > filter
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill
> into
> > > > the
> > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of
> the
> > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run
> their
> > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite
> > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
> announce
> > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from
> the
> > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
> messages
> > > to a
> > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an
> absolute
> > > > mess
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions,
> because
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search
> > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is
> > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been
> spent on
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the
> > > > separation
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this
> change,
> > > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages
> from
> > > > Git
> > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a
> > > > solution.
> > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use
> GMail and
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract
> generated
> > > > emails
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more
> important
> > > > > things
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through
> that
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone
> > > agrees
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
> > > > importance.
> > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be
> > > > important
> > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket,
> most
> > > > likely
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In
> > > other
> > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual
> > > messages
> > > > > and
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages.
> Not
> > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue
> disucssion
> > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to
> remove Git
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy
> Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not
> > > needed
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some
> kind
> > > > of
> > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new
> tasks /
> > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
> Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove
> JIRA
> > > > > issues
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other
> > > > people
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it
> is
> > > not
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest
> help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less
> duplicates
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test
> failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA
> (very
> > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails
> from
> > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox &
> PRs-related
> > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Ivan Pavlukhin
>

[Dmitry Pavlov]

I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
needed action from humans or not needed.

If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue created
email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.

In that paradigm,
A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
does not require any action from anyone.
B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see contributors
will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
generate any alerts.

I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we can
get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?


пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <[hidden email]>:

> I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
>
> Sergi
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Oleg,
> >
> > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > Oleg,
> > >
> > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> developers
> > > once again.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> sure
> > it
> > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> > spread
> > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us might
> > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> their
> > > > input is needed.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide
> for
> > us.
> > > > We
> > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we were
> > > > pointed
> > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do with
> > > > healthy
> > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> > members
> > > > > as
> > > > > > well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started from
> > Jira
> > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > useful to
> > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> forwarded?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira,
> but
> > jira
> > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all
> > > > > activity
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is
> not
> > > > useful
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can
> > continue
> > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but
> > dev
> > > > > list
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages
> and
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too
> > much
> > > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> > > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at
> all,
> > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors
> during
> > > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications.
> > > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all
> > these
> > > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC
> > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
> > answered -
> > > > > "I
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also
> > filters
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> > > > expected
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> > activities,
> > > > find
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to
> ...
> > well
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not
> find
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit
> from
> > > > them.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these
> > > > points.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be
> > > > notified
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> contributors
> > in
> > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list
> > and
> > > > just
> > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor
> > > > community
> > > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages
> > it is
> > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't
> > have it,
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > community-friendly,
> > > > > then
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone,
> so
> > no
> > > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for
> bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as
> > the
> > > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only
> the
> > > > once,
> > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost
> > among
> > > > the
> > > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > > > notifications,
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
> > mailing
> > > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would
> > simplify
> > > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
> > recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages
> from
> > > > bots,
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may
> > generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time,
> > the
> > > > > filter
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill
> > into
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of
> > the
> > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run
> > their
> > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep
> Ignite
> > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
> > announce
> > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from
> > the
> > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
> > messages
> > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an
> > absolute
> > > > > mess
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions,
> > because
> > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the
> search
> > > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is
> > > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been
> > spent on
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the
> > > > > separation
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this
> > change,
> > > > and
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for
> messages
> > from
> > > > > Git
> > > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir
> Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a
> > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use
> > GMail and
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract
> > generated
> > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more
> > important
> > > > > > things
> > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through
> > that
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone
> > > > agrees
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
> > > > > importance.
> > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be
> > > > > important
> > > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket,
> > most
> > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so.
> In
> > > > other
> > > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual
> > > > messages
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages.
> > Not
> > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue
> > disucssion
> > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to
> > remove Git
> > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy
> > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not
> > > > needed
> > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov
> <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in
> some
> > kind
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new
> > tasks /
> > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
> > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove
> > JIRA
> > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what
> other
> > > > > people
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if
> it
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest
> > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less
> > duplicates
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test
> > failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA
> > (very
> > > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of
> e-mails
> > from
> > > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox &
> > PRs-related
> > > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >
>

[Vladimir Ozerov]

We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only goal.

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
> automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> needed action from humans or not needed.
>
> If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue created
> email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
> can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.
>
> In that paradigm,
> A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
> does not require any action from anyone.
> B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see contributors
> will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
> Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
> generate any alerts.
>
> I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
> less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we can
> get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
>
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> >
> > Sergi
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Oleg,
> > >
> > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > Oleg,
> > > >
> > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > developers
> > > > once again.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> > sure
> > > it
> > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters to
> > > spread
> > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us
> might
> > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> > their
> > > > > input is needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a guide
> > for
> > > us.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we
> were
> > > > > pointed
> > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do
> with
> > > > > healthy
> > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are asf
> > > members
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started
> from
> > > Jira
> > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > > useful to
> > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira,
> > but
> > > jira
> > > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and
> all
> > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is
> > not
> > > > > useful
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can
> > > continue
> > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very
> useful.
> > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely,
> but
> > > dev
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages
> > and
> > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have
> too
> > > much
> > > > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we
> > > > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at
> > all,
> > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far
> as
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors
> > during
> > > > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> communications.
> > > > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat
> all
> > > these
> > > > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one
> PMC
> > > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
> > > answered -
> > > > > > "I
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also
> > > filters
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are
> > > > > expected
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> > > activities,
> > > > > find
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to
> > ...
> > > well
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not
> > find
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit
> > from
> > > > > them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of
> these
> > > > > points.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA
> bot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be
> > > > > notified
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> > contributors
> > > in
> > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the
> list
> > > and
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA
> messages
> > > it is
> > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't
> > > have it,
> > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > > community-friendly,
> > > > > > then
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone,
> > so
> > > no
> > > > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for
> > bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through,
> as
> > > the
> > > > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only
> > the
> > > > > once,
> > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost
> > > among
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > > > > notifications,
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
> > > mailing
> > > > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would
> > > simplify
> > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
> > > recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages
> > from
> > > > > bots,
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may
> > > generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with
> time,
> > > the
> > > > > > filter
> > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will
> spill
> > > into
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run
> > > their
> > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep
> > Ignite
> > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
> > > announce
> > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA
> from
> > > the
> > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov
> <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
> > > messages
> > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an
> > > absolute
> > > > > > mess
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions,
> > > because
> > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the
> > search
> > > > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters
> is
> > > > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been
> > > spent on
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make
> the
> > > > > > separation
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov
> <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this
> > > change,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for
> > messages
> > > from
> > > > > > Git
> > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir
> > Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not
> a
> > > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use
> > > GMail and
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract
> > > generated
> > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more
> > > important
> > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through
> > > that
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like
> everyone
> > > > > agrees
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about
> > > > > > importance.
> > > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to
> be
> > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket,
> > > most
> > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or
> so.
> > In
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created"
> messages.
> > > Not
> > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue
> > > disucssion
> > > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to
> > > remove Git
> > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy
> > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably
> not
> > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr
> Ivanov
> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in
> > some
> > > kind
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new
> > > tasks /
> > > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
> > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to
> remove
> > > JIRA
> > > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what
> > other
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may
> suggest
> > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less
> > > duplicates
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test
> > > failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
> > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA
> > > (very
> > > > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of
> > e-mails
> > > from
> > > > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need
> them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox &
> > > PRs-related
> > > > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >
> >
>

[Dmitry Pavlov]

Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance is
equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can only
understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.

If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may think
it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off. We
don't play in a democracy, hopefully.

My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially, PMCs), so
newcomers can use the same approach.

If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
practice is truth criteria.

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:

> We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only goal.
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
> > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> > needed action from humans or not needed.
> >
> > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> created
> > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
> > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.
> >
> > In that paradigm,
> > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
> > does not require any action from anyone.
> > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> contributors
> > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
> > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
> > generate any alerts.
> >
> > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
> > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we
> can
> > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> >
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > >
> > > Sergi
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Oleg,
> > > >
> > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > Oleg,
> > > > >
> > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > developers
> > > > > once again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> > > sure
> > > > it
> > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters
> to
> > > > spread
> > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us
> > might
> > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> > > their
> > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a
> guide
> > > for
> > > > us.
> > > > > > We
> > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we
> > were
> > > > > > pointed
> > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do
> > with
> > > > > > healthy
> > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are
> asf
> > > > members
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started
> > from
> > > > Jira
> > > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > > > useful to
> > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> > > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to
> jira,
> > > but
> > > > jira
> > > > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and
> > all
> > > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it
> is
> > > not
> > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we
> can
> > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for
> all
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very
> > useful.
> > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely,
> > but
> > > > dev
> > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
> messages
> > > and
> > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have
> > too
> > > > much
> > > > > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether
> we
> > > > > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at
> > > all,
> > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as
> far
> > as
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors
> > > during
> > > > > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> > communications.
> > > > > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat
> > all
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one
> > PMC
> > > > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
> > > > answered -
> > > > > > > "I
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who
> also
> > > > filters
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who
> are
> > > > > > expected
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> > > > activities,
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order
> to
> > > ...
> > > > well
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do
> not
> > > find
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
> benefit
> > > from
> > > > > > them.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev
> list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of
> > these
> > > > > > points.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA
> > bot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should
> be
> > > > > > notified
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> > > contributors
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the
> > list
> > > > and
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs
> poor
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA
> > messages
> > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we
> don't
> > > > have it,
> > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > > > community-friendly,
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
> everyone,
> > > so
> > > > no
> > > > > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for
> > > bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
> through,
> > as
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then
> only
> > > the
> > > > > > once,
> > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see
> > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get
> lost
> > > > among
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > > > > > notifications,
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
> > > > mailing
> > > > > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would
> > > > simplify
> > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
> > > > recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
> messages
> > > from
> > > > > > bots,
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may
> > > > generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with
> > time,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > filter
> > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will
> > spill
> > > > into
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to
> run
> > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep
> > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
> > > > announce
> > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
> Mekhanikov
> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
> > > > messages
> > > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an
> > > > absolute
> > > > > > > mess
> > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> discussions,
> > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the
> > > search
> > > > > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters
> > is
> > > > > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been
> > > > spent on
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make
> > the
> > > > > > > separation
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy
> Pavlov
> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this
> > > > change,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for
> > > messages
> > > > from
> > > > > > > Git
> > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir
> > > Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is
> not
> > a
> > > > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use
> > > > GMail and
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract
> > > > generated
> > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went
> through
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like
> > everyone
> > > > > > agrees
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all
> about
> > > > > > > importance.
> > > > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to
> > be
> > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a
> ticket,
> > > > most
> > > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or
> > so.
> > > In
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in
> manual
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created"
> > messages.
> > > > Not
> > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue
> > > > disucssion
> > > > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to
> > > > remove Git
> > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy
> > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably
> > not
> > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr
> > Ivanov
> > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in
> > > some
> > > > kind
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter
> (new
> > > > tasks /
> > > > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
> > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to
> > remove
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what
> > > other
> > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment
> if
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may
> > suggest
> > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less
> > > > duplicates
> > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages
> to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email]
> б>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test
> > > > failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49,
> Alexey
> > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from
> JIRA
> > > > (very
> > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of
> > > e-mails
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need
> > them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox &
> > > > PRs-related
> > > > > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Ivan Pavlukhin]

Hi,

Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
TC bot +
Jira -
GitHub -
пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

>
> Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance is
> equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can only
> understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
>
> If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may think
> it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off. We
> don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
>
> My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially, PMCs), so
> newcomers can use the same approach.
>
> If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> practice is truth criteria.
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only goal.
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to be
> > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > >
> > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> > created
> > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review, etc, you
> > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to duplicate.
> > >
> > > In that paradigm,
> > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR creation
> > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > contributors
> > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open ->
> > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it will not
> > > generate any alerts.
> > >
> > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be as
> > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all, we
> > can
> > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > >
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Sergi
> > > >
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Oleg,
> > > > >
> > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > > developers
> > > > > > once again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for JIRA, not
> > > > sure
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the filters
> > to
> > > > > spread
> > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of us
> > > might
> > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications when
> > > > their
> > > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a
> > guide
> > > > for
> > > > > us.
> > > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time we
> > > were
> > > > > > > pointed
> > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to do
> > > with
> > > > > > > healthy
> > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member are
> > asf
> > > > > members
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list started
> > > from
> > > > > Jira
> > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its is not
> > > > > useful to
> > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> > > > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to
> > jira,
> > > > but
> > > > > jira
> > > > > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and
> > > all
> > > > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we
> > can
> > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for
> > all
> > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > > [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very
> > > useful.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely,
> > > but
> > > > > dev
> > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
> > messages
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have
> > > too
> > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether
> > we
> > > > > > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at
> > > > all,
> > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as
> > far
> > > as
> > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors
> > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> > > communications.
> > > > > > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat
> > > all
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one
> > > PMC
> > > > > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC,
> > > > > answered -
> > > > > > > > "I
> > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who
> > also
> > > > > filters
> > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who
> > are
> > > > > > > expected
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> > > > > activities,
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order
> > to
> > > > ...
> > > > > well
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do
> > not
> > > > find
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
> > benefit
> > > > from
> > > > > > > them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev
> > list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of
> > > these
> > > > > > > points.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA
> > > bot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should
> > be
> > > > > > > notified
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> > > > contributors
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the
> > > list
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs
> > poor
> > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA
> > > messages
> > > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we
> > don't
> > > > > have it,
> > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > > > > community-friendly,
> > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
> > everyone,
> > > > so
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for
> > > > bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
> > through,
> > > as
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then
> > only
> > > > the
> > > > > > > once,
> > > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see
> > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get
> > lost
> > > > > among
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > > > > > > notifications,
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira)
> > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would
> > > > > simplify
> > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding
> > > > > recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
> > messages
> > > > from
> > > > > > > bots,
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may
> > > > > generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with
> > > time,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > filter
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will
> > > spill
> > > > > into
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to
> > run
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep
> > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors
> > > > > announce
> > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
> > Mekhanikov
> > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an
> > > > > absolute
> > > > > > > > mess
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> > discussions,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the
> > > > search
> > > > > > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters
> > > is
> > > > > > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been
> > > > > spent on
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make
> > > the
> > > > > > > > separation
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy
> > Pavlov
> > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this
> > > > > change,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for
> > > > messages
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > Git
> > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir
> > > > Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is
> > not
> > > a
> > > > > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use
> > > > > GMail and
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract
> > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more
> > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went
> > through
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like
> > > everyone
> > > > > > > agrees
> > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all
> > about
> > > > > > > > importance.
> > > > > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to
> > > be
> > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a
> > ticket,
> > > > > most
> > > > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or
> > > so.
> > > > In
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in
> > manual
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created"
> > > messages.
> > > > > Not
> > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue
> > > > > disucssion
> > > > > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to
> > > > > remove Git
> > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy
> > > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably
> > > not
> > > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr
> > > Ivanov
> > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in
> > > > some
> > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter
> > (new
> > > > > tasks /
> > > > > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy
> > > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to
> > > remove
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what
> > > > other
> > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment
> > if
> > > > it
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may
> > > suggest
> > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less
> > > > > duplicates
> > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email]
> > б>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test
> > > > > failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49,
> > Alexey
> > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from
> > JIRA
> > > > > (very
> > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of
> > > > e-mails
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need
> > > them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox &
> > > > > PRs-related
> > > > > > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

--
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin

[Denis Mekhanikov]

Dmitriy,

If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
a filter for Ignite tickets
and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
and subscriptions, so you can
specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
to receive these emails.
This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from a
bot.

So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
tickets,
may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need to
keep the forwarding to dev list.

Denis

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> TC bot +
> Jira -
> GitHub -
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance is
> > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can only
> > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >
> > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
> think
> > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off.
> We
> > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >
> > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially, PMCs),
> so
> > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >
> > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> > practice is truth criteria.
> >
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
> goal.
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails to
> be
> > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other classes: a
> > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> > > created
> > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
> etc, you
> > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> duplicate.
> > > >
> > > > In that paradigm,
> > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
> creation
> > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > > contributors
> > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss Open
> ->
> > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
> will not
> > > > generate any alerts.
> > > >
> > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to be
> as
> > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all,
> we
> > > can
> > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> [hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sergi
> > > > >
> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > > > developers
> > > > > > > once again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> discussion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for
> JIRA, not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the
> filters
> > > to
> > > > > > spread
> > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some of
> us
> > > > might
> > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss notifications
> when
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as a
> > > guide
> > > > > for
> > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in time
> we
> > > > were
> > > > > > > > pointed
> > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing to
> do
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > healthy
> > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member
> are
> > > asf
> > > > > > members
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list
> started
> > > > from
> > > > > > Jira
> > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its
> is not
> > > > > > useful to
> > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not
> > > > > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to
> > > jira,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > jira
> > > > > > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
> comments and
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm
> it
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list
> we
> > > can
> > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but
> for
> > > all
> > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very
> > > > useful.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated
> emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
> completely,
> > > > but
> > > > > > dev
> > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
> > > messages
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously
> have
> > > > too
> > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But
> whether
> > > we
> > > > > > > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
> important at
> > > > > all,
> > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And
> as
> > > far
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our
> mentors
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> > > > communications.
> > > > > > > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs
> treat
> > > > all
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem,
> one
> > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another
> PMC,
> > > > > > answered -
> > > > > > > > > "I
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who
> > > also
> > > > > > filters
> > > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in
> GMail.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC,
> who
> > > are
> > > > > > > > expected
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot of
> > > > > > activities,
> > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in
> order
> > > to
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans
> do
> > > not
> > > > > find
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
> > > benefit
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov
> <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev
> > > list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev
> list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any
> of
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > points.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from
> JIRA
> > > > bot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets
> should
> > > be
> > > > > > > > notified
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
> everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> > > > > contributors
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off
> the
> > > > list
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs
> > > poor
> > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA
> > > > messages
> > > > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we
> > > don't
> > > > > > have it,
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > > > > > community-friendly,
> > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development
> process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
> > > everyone,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing
> list for
> > > > > bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
> > > through,
> > > > as
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then
> > > only
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > once,
> > > > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters
> will see
> > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get
> > > lost
> > > > > > among
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA
> > > > > > > > notifications,
> > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> ignite-jira)
> > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It
> would
> > > > > > simplify
> > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> corresponding
> > > > > > recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
> > > messages
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > bots,
> > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots
> may
> > > > > > generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows
> with
> > > > time,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > filter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages
> will
> > > > spill
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy
> Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the
> openness
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention
> to
> > > run
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to
> keep
> > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> contributors
> > > > > > announce
> > > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it
> can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing
> JIRA
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
> > > Mekhanikov
> > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
> generated
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important
> ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble
> portal an
> > > > > > absolute
> > > > > > > > > mess
> > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> > > discussions,
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in
> the
> > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email
> filters
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has
> been
> > > > > > spent on
> > > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and
> make
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > separation
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy
> > > Pavlov
> > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on
> this
> > > > > > change,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > Git
> > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
> Vladimir
> > > > > Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter"
> is
> > > not
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g.
> I use
> > > > > > GMail and
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
> extract
> > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the
> more
> > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went
> > > through
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like
> > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > agrees
> > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all
> > > about
> > > > > > > > > importance.
> > > > > > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is
> likely to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a
> > > ticket,
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
> issue, or
> > > > so.
> > > > > In
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in
> > > manual
> > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created"
> > > > messages.
> > > > > > Not
> > > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
> continue
> > > > > > disucssion
> > > > > > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be
> done to
> > > > > > remove Git
> > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM
> Dmitriy
> > > > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is
> probably
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr
> > > > Ivanov
> > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications
> united in
> > > > > some
> > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter
> > > (new
> > > > > > tasks /
> > > > > > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15,
> Dmitriy
> > > > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree
> to
> > > > remove
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand
> what
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can
> comment
> > > if
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may
> > > > suggest
> > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or
> less
> > > > > > duplicates
> > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's
> messages
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> [hidden email]
> > > б>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and
> test
> > > > > > failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49,
> > > Alexey
> > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail
> from
> > > JIRA
> > > > > > (very
> > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting
> JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons
> of
> > > > > e-mails
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we
> need
> > > > them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
> GitBox &
> > > > > > PRs-related
> > > > > > > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Ivan Pavlukhin
>

[Dmitry Pavlov]

Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.

We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.

пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:

> Dmitriy,
>
> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
> a filter for Ignite tickets
> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
> and subscriptions, so you can
> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
> to receive these emails.
> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from a
> bot.
>
> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
> tickets,
> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need to
> keep the forwarding to dev list.
>
> Denis
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > TC bot +
> > Jira -
> > GitHub -
> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance
> is
> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can
> only
> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >
> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
> > think
> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it off.
> > We
> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >
> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> PMCs),
> > so
> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >
> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> > > practice is truth criteria.
> > >
> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
> > goal.
> > > >
> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails
> to
> > be
> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> classes: a
> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> > > > created
> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
> > etc, you
> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> > duplicate.
> > > > >
> > > > > In that paradigm,
> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
> > creation
> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > > > contributors
> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss
> Open
> > ->
> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
> > will not
> > > > > generate any alerts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to
> be
> > as
> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at all,
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> > [hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sergi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering community
> > > > > > developers
> > > > > > > > once again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> > discussion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for
> > JIRA, not
> > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the
> > filters
> > > > to
> > > > > > > spread
> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some
> of
> > us
> > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
> notifications
> > when
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member" as
> a
> > > > guide
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in
> time
> > we
> > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > pointed
> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing
> to
> > do
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > healthy
> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator member
> > are
> > > > asf
> > > > > > > members
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > well.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list
> > started
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > Jira
> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its
> > is not
> > > > > > > useful to
> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are
> not
> > > > > > forwarded?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate
> to
> > > > jira,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > jira
> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
> > comments and
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > activity
> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will
> confirm
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > > > continue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but
> > for
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are
> very
> > > > > useful.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated
> > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
> > completely,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > dev
> > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
> > > > messages
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously
> > have
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But
> > whether
> > > > we
> > > > > > > > > accumulate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
> > important at
> > > > > > all,
> > > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And
> > as
> > > > far
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our
> > mentors
> > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> > > > > communications.
> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs
> > treat
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
> problem,
> > one
> > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another
> > PMC,
> > > > > > > answered -
> > > > > > > > > > "I
> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC,
> who
> > > > also
> > > > > > > filters
> > > > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in
> > GMail.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC,
> > who
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > expected
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot
> of
> > > > > > > activities,
> > > > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in
> > order
> > > > to
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
> > > > benefit
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
> Mekhanikov
> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to
> dev
> > > > list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev
> list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev
> > list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace
> any
> > of
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > points.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from
> > JIRA
> > > > > bot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets
> > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > notified
> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
> > everyone.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov
> <
> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> > > > > > contributors
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off
> > the
> > > > > list
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really
> signs
> > > > poor
> > > > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA
> > > > > messages
> > > > > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If
> we
> > > > don't
> > > > > > > have it,
> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> > Mekhanikov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > > > > > > community-friendly,
> > > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development
> > process.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about
> it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
> > > > everyone,
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing
> > list for
> > > > > > bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
> > > > through,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list,
> then
> > > > only
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > once,
> > > > > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters
> > will see
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will
> get
> > > > lost
> > > > > > > among
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the
> JIRA
> > > > > > > > > notifications,
> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> > ignite-jira)
> > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > list,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It
> > would
> > > > > > > simplify
> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> > corresponding
> > > > > > > recipient.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
> > > > messages
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > bots,
> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots
> > may
> > > > > > > generate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows
> > with
> > > > > time,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > filter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages
> > will
> > > > > spill
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy
> > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the
> > openness
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
> attention
> > to
> > > > run
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the
> list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to
> > keep
> > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> > contributors
> > > > > > > announce
> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it
> > can't.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing
> > JIRA
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
> > > > Mekhanikov
> > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
> > generated
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important
> > ones).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble
> > portal an
> > > > > > > absolute
> > > > > > > > > > mess
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> > > > discussions,
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop
> in
> > the
> > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > results.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email
> > filters
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > waisting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours
> has
> > been
> > > > > > > spent on
> > > > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and
> > make
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > separation
> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy
> > > > Pavlov
> > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on
> > this
> > > > > > > change,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list
> for
> > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > Git
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
> > Vladimir
> > > > > > Ozerov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter"
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g.
> > I use
> > > > > > > GMail and
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
> > extract
> > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the
> > more
> > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went
> > > > through
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks
> like
> > > > > everyone
> > > > > > > > > agrees
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is
> all
> > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > importance.
> > > > > > > > > > > > When
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is
> > likely to
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a
> > > > ticket,
> > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
> > issue, or
> > > > > so.
> > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested
> in
> > > > manual
> > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created"
> > > > > messages.
> > > > > > > Not
> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
> > continue
> > > > > > > disucssion
> > > > > > > > > > > this.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be
> > done to
> > > > > > > remove Git
> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM
> > Dmitriy
> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is
> > probably
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28,
> Petr
> > > > > Ivanov
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications
> > united in
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special
> filter
> > > > (new
> > > > > > > tasks /
> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15,
> > Dmitriy
> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree
> > to
> > > > > remove
> > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
> understand
> > what
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can
> > comment
> > > > if
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you
> may
> > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or
> > less
> > > > > > > duplicates
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's
> > messages
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > б>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and
> > test
> > > > > > > failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> 17:49,
> > > > Alexey
> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail
> > from
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > (very
> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting
> > JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons
> > of
> > > > > > e-mails
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we
> > need
> > > > > them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
> > GitBox &
> > > > > > > PRs-related
> > > > > > > > > > > mails
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >
>

[Dmitry Pavlov]

One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages, it
_must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
e.g. notifications@ for this.

So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list creation
and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.

пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
>
> We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
>
> пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Dmitriy,
>>
>> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
>> a filter for Ignite tickets
>> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
>> and subscriptions, so you can
>> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
>> to receive these emails.
>> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from
>> a
>> bot.
>>
>> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
>> tickets,
>> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need
>> to
>> keep the forwarding to dev list.
>>
>> Denis
>>
>> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
>> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
>> > TC bot +
>> > Jira -
>> > GitHub -
>> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>> > >
>> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance
>> is
>> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
>> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can
>> only
>> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
>> > >
>> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
>> > think
>> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
>> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
>> off.
>> > We
>> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
>> > >
>> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
>> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
>> PMCs),
>> > so
>> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
>> > >
>> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
>> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
>> > > practice is truth criteria.
>> > >
>> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
>> > >
>> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
>> > goal.
>> > > >
>> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails
>> to
>> > be
>> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
>> classes: a
>> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
>> > > > created
>> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
>> > etc, you
>> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
>> > duplicate.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > In that paradigm,
>> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
>> > creation
>> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
>> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
>> > > > contributors
>> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss
>> Open
>> > ->
>> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
>> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
>> > will not
>> > > > > generate any alerts.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to
>> be
>> > as
>> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at
>> all,
>> > we
>> > > > can
>> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
>> > [hidden email]>:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Sergi
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
>> [hidden email]>:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Oleg,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
>> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> [hidden email]
>> > >:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Oleg,
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
>> community
>> > > > > > developers
>> > > > > > > > once again.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
>> > discussion.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
>> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
>> [hidden email]>:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for
>> > JIRA, not
>> > > > > > sure
>> > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the
>> > filters
>> > > > to
>> > > > > > > spread
>> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some
>> of
>> > us
>> > > > > might
>> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
>> notifications
>> > when
>> > > > > > their
>> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
>> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member"
>> as a
>> > > > guide
>> > > > > > for
>> > > > > > > us.
>> > > > > > > > > We
>> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in
>> time
>> > we
>> > > > > were
>> > > > > > > > > pointed
>> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing
>> to
>> > do
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > healthy
>> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator
>> member
>> > are
>> > > > asf
>> > > > > > > members
>> > > > > > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > > > > well.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list
>> > started
>> > > > > from
>> > > > > > > Jira
>> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its
>> > is not
>> > > > > > > useful to
>> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
>> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are
>> not
>> > > > > > forwarded?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate
>> to
>> > > > jira,
>> > > > > > but
>> > > > > > > jira
>> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
>> > comments and
>> > > > > all
>> > > > > > > > > > activity
>> > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will
>> confirm
>> > it
>> > > > is
>> > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > useful
>> > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the
>> list
>> > we
>> > > > can
>> > > > > > > continue
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans
>> but
>> > for
>> > > > all
>> > > > > > > > > community
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
>> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are
>> very
>> > > > > useful.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated
>> > emails.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
>> > completely,
>> > > > > but
>> > > > > > > dev
>> > > > > > > > > > list
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov
>> <
>> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
>> > > > messages
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > community
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
>> obviously
>> > have
>> > > > > too
>> > > > > > > much
>> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But
>> > whether
>> > > > we
>> > > > > > > > > accumulate
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
>> > important at
>> > > > > > all,
>> > > > > > > > > > provided
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel.
>> And
>> > as
>> > > > far
>> > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our
>> > mentors
>> > > > > > during
>> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
>> > > > > communications.
>> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs
>> > treat
>> > > > > all
>> > > > > > > these
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
>> problem,
>> > one
>> > > > > PMC
>> > > > > > > > > proposed
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
>> another
>> > PMC,
>> > > > > > > answered -
>> > > > > > > > > > "I
>> > > > > > > > > > > do
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC,
>> who
>> > > > also
>> > > > > > > filters
>> > > > > > > > > > > these
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in
>> > GMail.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many
>> PMC,
>> > who
>> > > > are
>> > > > > > > > > expected
>> > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot
>> of
>> > > > > > > activities,
>> > > > > > > > > find
>> > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in
>> > order
>> > > > to
>> > > > > > ...
>> > > > > > > well
>> > > > > > > > > > ...
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
>> veterans
>> > do
>> > > > not
>> > > > > > find
>> > > > > > > > > these
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
>> > > > benefit
>> > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > them.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
>> Mekhanikov
>> > <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to
>> dev
>> > > > list.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev
>> list.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev
>> > list.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace
>> any
>> > of
>> > > > > these
>> > > > > > > > > points.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message
>> from
>> > JIRA
>> > > > > bot.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets
>> > should
>> > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > notified
>> > > > > > > > > > > > about
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
>> > everyone.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
>> Pavlov <
>> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
>> > > > > > contributors
>> > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > > future.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made
>> off
>> > the
>> > > > > list
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > just
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really
>> signs
>> > > > poor
>> > > > > > > > > community
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with
>> JIRA
>> > > > > messages
>> > > > > > > it is
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If
>> we
>> > > > don't
>> > > > > > > have it,
>> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
>> > Mekhanikov <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
>> > > > > > > community-friendly,
>> > > > > > > > > > then
>> > > > > > > > > > > we
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development
>> > process.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about
>> it.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
>> > > > everyone,
>> > > > > > so
>> > > > > > > no
>> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing
>> > list for
>> > > > > > bots.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
>> > > > through,
>> > > > > as
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list,
>> then
>> > > > only
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > once,
>> > > > > > > > > > > who
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters
>> > will see
>> > > > > it.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will
>> get
>> > > > lost
>> > > > > > > among
>> > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the
>> JIRA
>> > > > > > > > > notifications,
>> > > > > > > > > > > you
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
>> > ignite-jira)
>> > > > > > > mailing
>> > > > > > > > > > list,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It
>> > would
>> > > > > > > simplify
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
>> > corresponding
>> > > > > > > recipient.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
>> > > > messages
>> > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > bots,
>> > > > > > > > > > > you
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots
>> > may
>> > > > > > > generate.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows
>> > with
>> > > > > time,
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > filter
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages
>> > will
>> > > > > spill
>> > > > > > > into
>> > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy
>> > Pavlov <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the
>> > openness
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
>> attention
>> > to
>> > > > run
>> > > > > > > their
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > >
>> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the
>> list.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way
>> to
>> > keep
>> > > > > > Ignite
>> > > > > > > > > > > > development
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
>> > contributors
>> > > > > > > announce
>> > > > > > > > > > > > important
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it
>> > can't.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing
>> > JIRA
>> > > > > from
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > list?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
>> > > > Mekhanikov
>> > > > > <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
>> > generated
>> > > > > > > messages
>> > > > > > > > > to a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important
>> > ones).
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble
>> > portal an
>> > > > > > > absolute
>> > > > > > > > > > mess
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
>> > > > discussions,
>> > > > > > > because
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop
>> in
>> > the
>> > > > > > search
>> > > > > > > > > > > results.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email
>> > filters
>> > > > > is
>> > > > > > > > > waisting
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours
>> has
>> > been
>> > > > > > > spent on
>> > > > > > > > > > it.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others,
>> and
>> > make
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > separation
>> > > > > > > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
>> Dmitriy
>> > > > Pavlov
>> > > > > <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote
>> on
>> > this
>> > > > > > > change,
>> > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > then
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list
>> for
>> > > > > > messages
>> > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > > Git
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
>> > Vladimir
>> > > > > > Ozerov <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
>> filter"
>> > is
>> > > > not
>> > > > > a
>> > > > > > > > > > solution.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically.
>> E.g.
>> > I use
>> > > > > > > GMail and
>> > > > > > > > > > my
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
>> > extract
>> > > > > > > generated
>> > > > > > > > > > emails
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the
>> > more
>> > > > > > > important
>> > > > > > > > > > > things
>> > > > > > > > > > > > -
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to
>> went
>> > > > through
>> > > > > > > that
>> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks
>> like
>> > > > > everyone
>> > > > > > > > > agrees
>> > > > > > > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is
>> all
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > > > > > importance.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > When
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is
>> > likely to
>> > > > > be
>> > > > > > > > > > important
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates
>> a
>> > > > ticket,
>> > > > > > > most
>> > > > > > > > > > likely
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
>> > issue, or
>> > > > > so.
>> > > > > > In
>> > > > > > > > > other
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested
>> in
>> > > > manual
>> > > > > > > > > messages
>> > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > is
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
>> created"
>> > > > > messages.
>> > > > > > > Not
>> > > > > > > > > > > > important
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
>> > continue
>> > > > > > > disucssion
>> > > > > > > > > > > this.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be
>> > done to
>> > > > > > > remove Git
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM
>> > Dmitriy
>> > > > > > > Pavlov <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is
>> > probably
>> > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > needed
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28,
>> Petr
>> > > > > Ivanov
>> > > > > > <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications
>> > united in
>> > > > > > some
>> > > > > > > kind
>> > > > > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special
>> filter
>> > > > (new
>> > > > > > > tasks /
>> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15,
>> > Dmitriy
>> > > > > > > Pavlov <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
>> disagree
>> > to
>> > > > > remove
>> > > > > > > JIRA
>> > > > > > > > > > > issues
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
>> understand
>> > what
>> > > > > > other
>> > > > > > > > > > people
>> > > > > > > > > > > > are
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can
>> > comment
>> > > > if
>> > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > is
>> > > > > > > > > not
>> > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you
>> may
>> > > > > suggest
>> > > > > > > help.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or
>> > less
>> > > > > > > duplicates
>> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's
>> > messages
>> > > > to
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
>> > [hidden email]
>> > > > б>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA
>> and
>> > test
>> > > > > > > failures.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
>> 17:49,
>> > > > Alexey
>> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail
>> > from
>> > > > JIRA
>> > > > > > > (very
>> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting
>> > JIRA).
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting
>> tons
>> > of
>> > > > > > e-mails
>> > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we
>> > need
>> > > > > them?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
>> > GitBox &
>> > > > > > > PRs-related
>> > > > > > > > > > > mails
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > Best regards,
>> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Best regards,
>> > Ivan Pavlukhin
>> >
>>
>

[Ivan Pavlukhin]

Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

>
> One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages, it
> _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
> e.g. notifications@ for this.
>
> So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list creation
> and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
>
> пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> >
> > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> >
> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Dmitriy,
> >>
> >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA, create
> >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of filters
> >> and subscriptions, so you can
> >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you want
> >> to receive these emails.
> >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails from
> >> a
> >> bot.
> >>
> >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track new
> >> tickets,
> >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we need
> >> to
> >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> >>
> >> Denis
> >>
> >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> >> > TC bot +
> >> > Jira -
> >> > GitHub -
> >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >> > >
> >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that importance
> >> is
> >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I can
> >> only
> >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >> > >
> >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she may
> >> > think
> >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors who
> >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
> >> off.
> >> > We
> >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >> > >
> >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of human-human
> >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> >> PMCs),
> >> > so
> >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >> > >
> >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step. Only
> >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> >> > >
> >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> >> > >
> >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the only
> >> > goal.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify emails
> >> to
> >> > be
> >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> >> classes: a
> >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA issue
> >> > > > created
> >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments, review,
> >> > etc, you
> >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> >> > duplicate.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .- PR
> >> > creation
> >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> >> > > > contributors
> >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can discuss
> >> Open
> >> > ->
> >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully, it
> >> > will not
> >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message count to
> >> be
> >> > as
> >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at
> >> all,
> >> > we
> >> > > > can
> >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> >> > [hidden email]>:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Sergi
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
> >> [hidden email]>:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Oleg,
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> [hidden email]
> >> > >:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
> >> community
> >> > > > > > developers
> >> > > > > > > > once again.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> >> > discussion.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> >> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
> >> [hidden email]>:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As for
> >> > JIRA, not
> >> > > > > > sure
> >> > > > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all the
> >> > filters
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > > > > spread
> >> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise, some
> >> of
> >> > us
> >> > > > > might
> >> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
> >> notifications
> >> > when
> >> > > > > > their
> >> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF member"
> >> as a
> >> > > > guide
> >> > > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > us.
> >> > > > > > > > > We
> >> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point in
> >> time
> >> > we
> >> > > > > were
> >> > > > > > > > > pointed
> >> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has nothing
> >> to
> >> > do
> >> > > > > with
> >> > > > > > > > > healthy
> >> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator
> >> member
> >> > are
> >> > > > asf
> >> > > > > > > members
> >> > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > > > > > well.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the list
> >> > started
> >> > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > Jira
> >> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince me its
> >> > is not
> >> > > > > > > useful to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets are
> >> not
> >> > > > > > forwarded?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate
> >> to
> >> > > > jira,
> >> > > > > > but
> >> > > > > > > jira
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
> >> > comments and
> >> > > > > all
> >> > > > > > > > > > activity
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will
> >> confirm
> >> > it
> >> > > > is
> >> > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > useful
> >> > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the
> >> list
> >> > we
> >> > > > can
> >> > > > > > > continue
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans
> >> but
> >> > for
> >> > > > all
> >> > > > > > > > > community
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the list.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> >> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are
> >> very
> >> > > > > useful.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated
> >> > emails.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
> >> > completely,
> >> > > > > but
> >> > > > > > > dev
> >> > > > > > > > > > list
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov
> >> <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated
> >> > > > messages
> >> > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > community
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
> >> obviously
> >> > have
> >> > > > > too
> >> > > > > > > much
> >> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad. But
> >> > whether
> >> > > > we
> >> > > > > > > > > accumulate
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
> >> > important at
> >> > > > > > all,
> >> > > > > > > > > > provided
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel.
> >> And
> >> > as
> >> > > > far
> >> > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of our
> >> > mentors
> >> > > > > > during
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> >> > > > > communications.
> >> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs
> >> > treat
> >> > > > > all
> >> > > > > > > these
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
> >> problem,
> >> > one
> >> > > > > PMC
> >> > > > > > > > > proposed
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
> >> another
> >> > PMC,
> >> > > > > > > answered -
> >> > > > > > > > > > "I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > do
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC,
> >> who
> >> > > > also
> >> > > > > > > filters
> >> > > > > > > > > > > these
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter in
> >> > GMail.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many
> >> PMC,
> >> > who
> >> > > > are
> >> > > > > > > > > expected
> >> > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a lot
> >> of
> >> > > > > > > activities,
> >> > > > > > > > > find
> >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in
> >> > order
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > > > ...
> >> > > > > > > well
> >> > > > > > > > > > ...
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
> >> veterans
> >> > do
> >> > > > not
> >> > > > > > find
> >> > > > > > > > > these
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can
> >> > > > benefit
> >> > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > them.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
> >> Mekhanikov
> >> > <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something – write to
> >> dev
> >> > > > list.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev
> >> list.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev
> >> > list.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace
> >> any
> >> > of
> >> > > > > these
> >> > > > > > > > > points.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message
> >> from
> >> > JIRA
> >> > > > > bot.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets
> >> > should
> >> > > > be
> >> > > > > > > > > notified
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
> >> > everyone.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
> >> Pavlov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by
> >> > > > > > contributors
> >> > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > > > > > future.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made
> >> off
> >> > the
> >> > > > > list
> >> > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > just
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really
> >> signs
> >> > > > poor
> >> > > > > > > > > community
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with
> >> JIRA
> >> > > > > messages
> >> > > > > > > it is
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If
> >> we
> >> > > > don't
> >> > > > > > > have it,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> >> > Mekhanikov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> >> > > > > > > community-friendly,
> >> > > > > > > > > > then
> >> > > > > > > > > > > we
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required development
> >> > process.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about
> >> it.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for
> >> > > > everyone,
> >> > > > > > so
> >> > > > > > > no
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing
> >> > list for
> >> > > > > > bots.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search
> >> > > > through,
> >> > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list,
> >> then
> >> > > > only
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > once,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > who
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters
> >> > will see
> >> > > > > it.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will
> >> get
> >> > > > lost
> >> > > > > > > among
> >> > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the
> >> JIRA
> >> > > > > > > > > notifications,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> >> > ignite-jira)
> >> > > > > > > mailing
> >> > > > > > > > > > list,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It
> >> > would
> >> > > > > > > simplify
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> >> > corresponding
> >> > > > > > > recipient.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all
> >> > > > messages
> >> > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > bots,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots
> >> > may
> >> > > > > > > generate.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows
> >> > with
> >> > > > > time,
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > filter
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages
> >> > will
> >> > > > > spill
> >> > > > > > > into
> >> > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy
> >> > Pavlov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the
> >> > openness
> >> > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
> >> attention
> >> > to
> >> > > > run
> >> > > > > > > their
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the
> >> list.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way
> >> to
> >> > keep
> >> > > > > > Ignite
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> >> > contributors
> >> > > > > > > announce
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it
> >> > can't.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing
> >> > JIRA
> >> > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > list?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis
> >> > > > Mekhanikov
> >> > > > > <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
> >> > generated
> >> > > > > > > messages
> >> > > > > > > > > to a
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important
> >> > ones).
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble
> >> > portal an
> >> > > > > > > absolute
> >> > > > > > > > > > mess
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> >> > > > discussions,
> >> > > > > > > because
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop
> >> in
> >> > the
> >> > > > > > search
> >> > > > > > > > > > > results.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure email
> >> > filters
> >> > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > > > waisting
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours
> >> has
> >> > been
> >> > > > > > > spent on
> >> > > > > > > > > > it.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of others,
> >> and
> >> > make
> >> > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > separation
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
> >> Dmitriy
> >> > > > Pavlov
> >> > > > > <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote
> >> on
> >> > this
> >> > > > > > > change,
> >> > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > then
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list
> >> for
> >> > > > > > messages
> >> > > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > > Git
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
> >> > Vladimir
> >> > > > > > Ozerov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
> >> filter"
> >> > is
> >> > > > not
> >> > > > > a
> >> > > > > > > > > > solution.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically.
> >> E.g.
> >> > I use
> >> > > > > > > GMail and
> >> > > > > > > > > > my
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
> >> > extract
> >> > > > > > > generated
> >> > > > > > > > > > emails
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the
> >> > more
> >> > > > > > > important
> >> > > > > > > > > > > things
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > -
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to
> >> went
> >> > > > through
> >> > > > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks
> >> like
> >> > > > > everyone
> >> > > > > > > > > agrees
> >> > > > > > > > > > > with
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is
> >> all
> >> > > > about
> >> > > > > > > > > > importance.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > When
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is
> >> > likely to
> >> > > > > be
> >> > > > > > > > > > important
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates
> >> a
> >> > > > ticket,
> >> > > > > > > most
> >> > > > > > > > > > likely
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
> >> > issue, or
> >> > > > > so.
> >> > > > > > In
> >> > > > > > > > > other
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested
> >> in
> >> > > > manual
> >> > > > > > > > > messages
> >> > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
> >> created"
> >> > > > > messages.
> >> > > > > > > Not
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
> >> > continue
> >> > > > > > > disucssion
> >> > > > > > > > > > > this.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be
> >> > done to
> >> > > > > > > remove Git
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM
> >> > Dmitriy
> >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is
> >> > probably
> >> > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > needed
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28,
> >> Petr
> >> > > > > Ivanov
> >> > > > > > <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications
> >> > united in
> >> > > > > > some
> >> > > > > > > kind
> >> > > > > > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special
> >> filter
> >> > > > (new
> >> > > > > > > tasks /
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15,
> >> > Dmitriy
> >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
> >> disagree
> >> > to
> >> > > > > remove
> >> > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > > > > > > > > > > issues
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
> >> understand
> >> > what
> >> > > > > > other
> >> > > > > > > > > > people
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can
> >> > comment
> >> > > > if
> >> > > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you
> >> may
> >> > > > > suggest
> >> > > > > > > help.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or
> >> > less
> >> > > > > > > duplicates
> >> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's
> >> > messages
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > > > б>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA
> >> and
> >> > test
> >> > > > > > > failures.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> >> 17:49,
> >> > > > Alexey
> >> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail
> >> > from
> >> > > > JIRA
> >> > > > > > > (very
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting
> >> > JIRA).
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting
> >> tons
> >> > of
> >> > > > > > e-mails
> >> > > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we
> >> > need
> >> > > > > them?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
> >> > GitBox &
> >> > > > > > > PRs-related
> >> > > > > > > > > > > mails
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > Best regards,
> >> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Best regards,
> >> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >> >
> >>
> >

--
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin

[Dmitry Pavlov]

Please start a vote according to
https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.

I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from the
list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
redirection, but I will not drive this topic.

ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:

> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages,
> it
> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> >
> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> creation
> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> >
> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> > >
> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >
> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >>
> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> create
> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> filters
> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you
> want
> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails
> from
> > >> a
> > >> bot.
> > >>
> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track
> new
> > >> tickets,
> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> need
> > >> to
> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >>
> > >> Denis
> > >>
> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> importance
> > >> is
> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> can
> > >> only
> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she
> may
> > >> > think
> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors
> who
> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
> > >> off.
> > >> > We
> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> human-human
> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> > >> PMCs),
> > >> > so
> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step.
> Only
> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
> only
> > >> > goal.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
> emails
> > >> to
> > >> > be
> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> > >> classes: a
> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA
> issue
> > >> > > > created
> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
> review,
> > >> > etc, you
> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> > >> > duplicate.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> > >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .-
> PR
> > >> > creation
> > >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > >> > > > contributors
> > >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can
> discuss
> > >> Open
> > >> > ->
> > >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully,
> it
> > >> > will not
> > >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message
> count to
> > >> be
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at
> > >> all,
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > can
> > >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> > >> > [hidden email]>:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Sergi
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
> > >> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > >:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
> > >> community
> > >> > > > > > developers
> > >> > > > > > > > once again.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> > >> > discussion.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
> > >> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As
> for
> > >> > JIRA, not
> > >> > > > > > sure
> > >> > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all
> the
> > >> > filters
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > spread
> > >> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise,
> some
> > >> of
> > >> > us
> > >> > > > > might
> > >> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
> > >> notifications
> > >> > when
> > >> > > > > > their
> > >> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF
> member"
> > >> as a
> > >> > > > guide
> > >> > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > us.
> > >> > > > > > > > > We
> > >> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point
> in
> > >> time
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > > were
> > >> > > > > > > > > pointed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has
> nothing
> > >> to
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > healthy
> > >> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator
> > >> member
> > >> > are
> > >> > > > asf
> > >> > > > > > > members
> > >> > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > well.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the
> list
> > >> > started
> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > Jira
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince
> me its
> > >> > is not
> > >> > > > > > > useful to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets
> are
> > >> not
> > >> > > > > > forwarded?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is
> duplicate
> > >> to
> > >> > > > jira,
> > >> > > > > > but
> > >> > > > > > > jira
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
> > >> > comments and
> > >> > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > > activity
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will
> > >> confirm
> > >> > it
> > >> > > > is
> > >> > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > useful
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the
> > >> list
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > continue
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for
> veterans
> > >> but
> > >> > for
> > >> > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the
> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > >> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets
> are
> > >> very
> > >> > > > > useful.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all
> automated
> > >> > emails.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
> > >> > completely,
> > >> > > > > but
> > >> > > > > > > dev
> > >> > > > > > > > > > list
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir
> Ozerov
> > >> <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of
> generated
> > >> > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
> > >> obviously
> > >> > have
> > >> > > > > too
> > >> > > > > > > much
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad.
> But
> > >> > whether
> > >> > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > accumulate
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
> > >> > important at
> > >> > > > > > all,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > provided
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA
> channel.
> > >> And
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > far
> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of
> our
> > >> > mentors
> > >> > > > > > during
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> > >> > > > > communications.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we
> are.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how
> PMCs
> > >> > treat
> > >> > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
> > >> problem,
> > >> > one
> > >> > > > > PMC
> > >> > > > > > > > > proposed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
> > >> another
> > >> > PMC,
> > >> > > > > > > answered -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > "I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third
> PMC,
> > >> who
> > >> > > > also
> > >> > > > > > > filters
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter
> in
> > >> > GMail.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many
> > >> PMC,
> > >> > who
> > >> > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > expected
> > >> > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a
> lot
> > >> of
> > >> > > > > > > activities,
> > >> > > > > > > > > find
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their
> inboxes in
> > >> > order
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > ...
> > >> > > > > > > well
> > >> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
> > >> veterans
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > not
> > >> > > > > > find
> > >> > > > > > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who
> else can
> > >> > > > benefit
> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > them.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
> > >> Mekhanikov
> > >> > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> filter.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do
> it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something –
> write to
> > >> dev
> > >> > > > list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev
> > >> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to
> dev
> > >> > list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can
> replace
> > >> any
> > >> > of
> > >> > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > points.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message
> > >> from
> > >> > JIRA
> > >> > > > > bot.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA
> tickets
> > >> > should
> > >> > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > notified
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
> > >> > everyone.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
> > >> Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> filter.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be
> done by
> > >> > > > > > contributors
> > >> > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > future.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are
> made
> > >> off
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > list
> > >> > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > just
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it
> really
> > >> signs
> > >> > > > poor
> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with
> > >> JIRA
> > >> > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > it is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list
> development. If
> > >> we
> > >> > > > don't
> > >> > > > > > > have it,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> > >> > Mekhanikov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > >> > > > > > > community-friendly,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > then
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required
> development
> > >> > process.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care
> about
> > >> it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open
> for
> > >> > > > everyone,
> > >> > > > > > so
> > >> > > > > > > no
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate
> mailing
> > >> > list for
> > >> > > > > > bots.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to
> search
> > >> > > > through,
> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev
> list,
> > >> then
> > >> > > > only
> > >> > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > once,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > who
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email
> filters
> > >> > will see
> > >> > > > > it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it
> will
> > >> get
> > >> > > > lost
> > >> > > > > > > among
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving
> the
> > >> JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > notifications,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> > >> > ignite-jira)
> > >> > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > > > > > > > > > list,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens
> there. It
> > >> > would
> > >> > > > > > > simplify
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> > >> > corresponding
> > >> > > > > > > recipient.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out
> all
> > >> > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > bots,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that
> bots
> > >> > may
> > >> > > > > > > generate.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only
> grows
> > >> > with
> > >> > > > > time,
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > filter
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise
> messages
> > >> > will
> > >> > > > > spill
> > >> > > > > > > into
> > >> > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58,
> Dmitriy
> > >> > Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is
> the
> > >> > openness
> > >> > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
> > >> attention
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > run
> > >> > > > > > > their
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features,
> and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the
> > >> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only
> way
> > >> to
> > >> > keep
> > >> > > > > > Ignite
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev.
> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> > >> > contributors
> > >> > > > > > > announce
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
> Now it
> > >> > can't.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by
> removing
> > >> > JIRA
> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > list?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34,
> Denis
> > >> > > > Mekhanikov
> > >> > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
> > >> > generated
> > >> > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > to a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most
> important
> > >> > ones).
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the
> Nabble
> > >> > portal an
> > >> > > > > > > absolute
> > >> > > > > > > > > > mess
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> > >> > > > discussions,
> > >> > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages
> pop
> > >> in
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > > search
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > results.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
> email
> > >> > filters
> > >> > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > waisting
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many
> human-hours
> > >> has
> > >> > been
> > >> > > > > > > spent on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of
> others,
> > >> and
> > >> > make
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > separation
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
> > >> Dmitriy
> > >> > > > Pavlov
> > >> > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal
> vote
> > >> on
> > >> > this
> > >> > > > > > > change,
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > then
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate
> list
> > >> for
> > >> > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Git
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
> > >> > Vladimir
> > >> > > > > > Ozerov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
> > >> filter"
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > not
> > >> > > > > a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > solution.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically.
> > >> E.g.
> > >> > I use
> > >> > > > > > > GMail and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > my
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
> > >> > extract
> > >> > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
> But the
> > >> > more
> > >> > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > things
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to
> > >> went
> > >> > > > through
> > >> > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam.
> Looks
> > >> like
> > >> > > > > everyone
> > >> > > > > > > > > agrees
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this
> is
> > >> all
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > importance.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > When
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this
> is
> > >> > likely to
> > >> > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone
> creates
> > >> a
> > >> > > > ticket,
> > >> > > > > > > most
> > >> > > > > > > > > > likely
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
> > >> > issue, or
> > >> > > > > so.
> > >> > > > > > In
> > >> > > > > > > > > other
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be
> interested
> > >> in
> > >> > > > manual
> > >> > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
> > >> created"
> > >> > > > > messages.
> > >> > > > > > > Not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
> > >> > continue
> > >> > > > > > > disucssion
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > this.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should
> be
> > >> > done to
> > >> > > > > > > remove Git
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49
> PM
> > >> > Dmitriy
> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest,
> is
> > >> > probably
> > >> > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > needed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> 18:28,
> > >> Petr
> > >> > > > > Ivanov
> > >> > > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira
> notifications
> > >> > united in
> > >> > > > > > some
> > >> > > > > > > kind
> > >> > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special
> > >> filter
> > >> > > > (new
> > >> > > > > > > tasks /
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
> scheme?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at
> 18:15,
> > >> > Dmitriy
> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
> > >> disagree
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > > remove
> > >> > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issues
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
> > >> understand
> > >> > what
> > >> > > > > > other
> > >> > > > > > > > > > people
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always
> can
> > >> > comment
> > >> > > > if
> > >> > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and
> you
> > >> may
> > >> > > > > suggest
> > >> > > > > > > help.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is
> more or
> > >> > less
> > >> > > > > > > duplicates
> > >> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move
> Git's
> > >> > messages
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > б>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep
> JIRA
> > >> and
> > >> > test
> > >> > > > > > > failures.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> > >> 17:49,
> > >> > > > Alexey
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for
> e-mail
> > >> > from
> > >> > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > (very
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without
> visiting
> > >> > JIRA).
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting
> > >> tons
> > >> > of
> > >> > > > > > e-mails
> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what
> for we
> > >> > need
> > >> > > > > them?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
> > >> > GitBox &
> > >> > > > > > > PRs-related
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > mails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > >> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Best regards,
> > >> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Ivan Pavlukhin
>
>

[Dmitry Pavlov]

Hi Igniters,

After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
using the list.

I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
share your vision on this topic. Should it be [hidden email] or we
should reuse [hidden email]

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> Please start a vote according to
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
>
> I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from the
> list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
>
> ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
>> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages,
>> it
>> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
>> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
>> >
>> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
>> creation
>> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
>> >
>> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
>> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
>> > >
>> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
>> > >
>> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]
>> >:
>> > >
>> > >> Dmitriy,
>> > >>
>> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
>> create
>> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
>> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
>> filters
>> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
>> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you
>> want
>> > >> to receive these emails.
>> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails
>> from
>> > >> a
>> > >> bot.
>> > >>
>> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track
>> new
>> > >> tickets,
>> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
>> need
>> > >> to
>> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
>> > >>
>> > >> Denis
>> > >>
>> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
>> on
>> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
>> > >> > TC bot +
>> > >> > Jira -
>> > >> > GitHub -
>> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
>> importance
>> > >> is
>> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
>> not
>> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
>> can
>> > >> only
>> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she
>> may
>> > >> > think
>> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors
>> who
>> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
>> it
>> > >> off.
>> > >> > We
>> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
>> human-human
>> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
>> > >> PMCs),
>> > >> > so
>> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency
>> in
>> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second
>> step. Only
>> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
>> [hidden email]>:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
>> only
>> > >> > goal.
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> [hidden email]>:
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
>> emails
>> > >> to
>> > >> > be
>> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
>> > >> classes: a
>> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA
>> issue
>> > >> > > > created
>> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
>> review,
>> > >> > etc, you
>> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
>> > >> > duplicate.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > In that paradigm,
>> > >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .-
>> PR
>> > >> > creation
>> > >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
>> > >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will
>> see
>> > >> > > > contributors
>> > >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can
>> discuss
>> > >> Open
>> > >> > ->
>> > >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
>> > >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected.
>> Hopefully, it
>> > >> > will not
>> > >> > > > > generate any alerts.
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message
>> count to
>> > >> be
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here
>> at
>> > >> all,
>> > >> > we
>> > >> > > > can
>> > >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
>> > >> > [hidden email]>:
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > Sergi
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
>> > >> [hidden email]>:
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > Oleg,
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite
>> interesting.
>> > >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> > >> [hidden email]
>> > >> > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > Oleg,
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
>> > >> community
>> > >> > > > > > developers
>> > >> > > > > > > > once again.
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
>> > >> > discussion.
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
>> > >> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
>> > >> [hidden email]>:
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As
>> for
>> > >> > JIRA, not
>> > >> > > > > > sure
>> > >> > > > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all
>> the
>> > >> > filters
>> > >> > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > spread
>> > >> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise,
>> some
>> > >> of
>> > >> > us
>> > >> > > > > might
>> > >> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
>> > >> notifications
>> > >> > when
>> > >> > > > > > their
>> > >> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > --
>> > >> > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF
>> member"
>> > >> as a
>> > >> > > > guide
>> > >> > > > > > for
>> > >> > > > > > > us.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > We
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point
>> in
>> > >> time
>> > >> > we
>> > >> > > > > were
>> > >> > > > > > > > > pointed
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has
>> nothing
>> > >> to
>> > >> > do
>> > >> > > > > with
>> > >> > > > > > > > > healthy
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator
>> > >> member
>> > >> > are
>> > >> > > > asf
>> > >> > > > > > > members
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > as
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > well.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the
>> list
>> > >> > started
>> > >> > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > Jira
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince
>> me its
>> > >> > is not
>> > >> > > > > > > useful to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
>> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets
>> are
>> > >> not
>> > >> > > > > > forwarded?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is
>> duplicate
>> > >> to
>> > >> > > > jira,
>> > >> > > > > > but
>> > >> > > > > > > jira
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
>> > >> > comments and
>> > >> > > > > all
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > activity
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will
>> > >> confirm
>> > >> > it
>> > >> > > > is
>> > >> > > > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > useful
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on
>> the
>> > >> list
>> > >> > we
>> > >> > > > can
>> > >> > > > > > > continue
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for
>> veterans
>> > >> but
>> > >> > for
>> > >> > > > all
>> > >> > > > > > > > > community
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the
>> list.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
>> > >> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets
>> are
>> > >> very
>> > >> > > > > useful.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all
>> automated
>> > >> > emails.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
>> > >> > completely,
>> > >> > > > > but
>> > >> > > > > > > dev
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > list
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir
>> Ozerov
>> > >> <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of
>> generated
>> > >> > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > community
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
>> > >> obviously
>> > >> > have
>> > >> > > > > too
>> > >> > > > > > > much
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad.
>> But
>> > >> > whether
>> > >> > > > we
>> > >> > > > > > > > > accumulate
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
>> > >> > important at
>> > >> > > > > > all,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > provided
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA
>> channel.
>> > >> And
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > > > far
>> > >> > > > > as
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of
>> our
>> > >> > mentors
>> > >> > > > > > during
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
>> > >> > > > > communications.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we
>> are.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is
>> how PMCs
>> > >> > treat
>> > >> > > > > all
>> > >> > > > > > > these
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
>> > >> problem,
>> > >> > one
>> > >> > > > > PMC
>> > >> > > > > > > > > proposed
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
>> > >> another
>> > >> > PMC,
>> > >> > > > > > > answered -
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > "I
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > do
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third
>> PMC,
>> > >> who
>> > >> > > > also
>> > >> > > > > > > filters
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > these
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter
>> in
>> > >> > GMail.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so
>> many
>> > >> PMC,
>> > >> > who
>> > >> > > > are
>> > >> > > > > > > > > expected
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow
>> a lot
>> > >> of
>> > >> > > > > > > activities,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > find
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their
>> inboxes in
>> > >> > order
>> > >> > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > ...
>> > >> > > > > > > well
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > ...
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
>> > >> veterans
>> > >> > do
>> > >> > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > find
>> > >> > > > > > > > > these
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who
>> else can
>> > >> > > > benefit
>> > >> > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > them.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
>> > >> Mekhanikov
>> > >> > <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
>> filter.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do
>> it.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something –
>> write to
>> > >> dev
>> > >> > > > list.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to
>> dev
>> > >> list.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to
>> dev
>> > >> > list.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can
>> replace
>> > >> any
>> > >> > of
>> > >> > > > > these
>> > >> > > > > > > > > points.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a
>> message
>> > >> from
>> > >> > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > bot.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA
>> tickets
>> > >> > should
>> > >> > > > be
>> > >> > > > > > > > > notified
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > about
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages
>> to
>> > >> > everyone.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
>> > >> Pavlov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
>> filter.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be
>> done by
>> > >> > > > > > contributors
>> > >> > > > > > > in
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > future.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are
>> made
>> > >> off
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > > > > list
>> > >> > > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > just
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it
>> really
>> > >> signs
>> > >> > > > poor
>> > >> > > > > > > > > community
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight
>> with
>> > >> JIRA
>> > >> > > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > > it is
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list
>> development. If
>> > >> we
>> > >> > > > don't
>> > >> > > > > > > have it,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
>> > >> > Mekhanikov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
>> > >> > > > > > > community-friendly,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > then
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > we
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required
>> development
>> > >> > process.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care
>> about
>> > >> it.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are
>> open for
>> > >> > > > everyone,
>> > >> > > > > > so
>> > >> > > > > > > no
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate
>> mailing
>> > >> > list for
>> > >> > > > > > bots.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to
>> search
>> > >> > > > through,
>> > >> > > > > as
>> > >> > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev
>> list,
>> > >> then
>> > >> > > > only
>> > >> > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > once,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > who
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email
>> filters
>> > >> > will see
>> > >> > > > > it.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it
>> will
>> > >> get
>> > >> > > > lost
>> > >> > > > > > > among
>> > >> > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving
>> the
>> > >> JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > > > notifications,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
>> > >> > ignite-jira)
>> > >> > > > > > > mailing
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > list,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens
>> there. It
>> > >> > would
>> > >> > > > > > > simplify
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
>> > >> > corresponding
>> > >> > > > > > > recipient.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter
>> out all
>> > >> > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > bots,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics,
>> that bots
>> > >> > may
>> > >> > > > > > > generate.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only
>> grows
>> > >> > with
>> > >> > > > > time,
>> > >> > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > filter
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise
>> messages
>> > >> > will
>> > >> > > > > spill
>> > >> > > > > > > into
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58,
>> Dmitriy
>> > >> > Pavlov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is
>> the
>> > >> > openness
>> > >> > > > > of
>> > >> > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
>> > >> attention
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > > > run
>> > >> > > > > > > their
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important
>> features, and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >>
>> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from
>> the
>> > >> list.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only
>> way
>> > >> to
>> > >> > keep
>> > >> > > > > > Ignite
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > development
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev.
>> list.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
>> > >> > contributors
>> > >> > > > > > > announce
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
>> Now it
>> > >> > can't.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by
>> removing
>> > >> > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > list?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34,
>> Denis
>> > >> > > > Mekhanikov
>> > >> > > > > <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
>> > >> > generated
>> > >> > > > > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > > > > to a
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most
>> important
>> > >> > ones).
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the
>> Nabble
>> > >> > portal an
>> > >> > > > > > > absolute
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mess
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for
>> old
>> > >> > > > discussions,
>> > >> > > > > > > because
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit
>> messages pop
>> > >> in
>> > >> > the
>> > >> > > > > > search
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > results.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
>> email
>> > >> > filters
>> > >> > > > > is
>> > >> > > > > > > > > waisting
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many
>> human-hours
>> > >> has
>> > >> > been
>> > >> > > > > > > spent on
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > it.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of
>> others,
>> > >> and
>> > >> > make
>> > >> > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > separation
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
>> > >> Dmitriy
>> > >> > > > Pavlov
>> > >> > > > > <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal
>> vote
>> > >> on
>> > >> > this
>> > >> > > > > > > change,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > then
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate
>> list
>> > >> for
>> > >> > > > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Git
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
>> > >> > Vladimir
>> > >> > > > > > Ozerov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
>> > >> filter"
>> > >> > is
>> > >> > > > not
>> > >> > > > > a
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > solution.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible
>> technically.
>> > >> E.g.
>> > >> > I use
>> > >> > > > > > > GMail and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I
>> cannot
>> > >> > extract
>> > >> > > > > > > generated
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > emails
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
>> But the
>> > >> > more
>> > >> > > > > > > important
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > things
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs
>> to
>> > >> went
>> > >> > > > through
>> > >> > > > > > > that
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam.
>> Looks
>> > >> like
>> > >> > > > > everyone
>> > >> > > > > > > > > agrees
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > with
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation -
>> this is
>> > >> all
>> > >> > > > about
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > importance.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > When
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this
>> is
>> > >> > likely to
>> > >> > > > > be
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > important
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone
>> creates
>> > >> a
>> > >> > > > ticket,
>> > >> > > > > > > most
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > likely
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already
>> discussed
>> > >> > issue, or
>> > >> > > > > so.
>> > >> > > > > > In
>> > >> > > > > > > > > other
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be
>> interested
>> > >> in
>> > >> > > > manual
>> > >> > > > > > > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > is
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
>> > >> created"
>> > >> > > > > messages.
>> > >> > > > > > > Not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important.
>> Let's
>> > >> > continue
>> > >> > > > > > > disucssion
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > this.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what
>> should be
>> > >> > done to
>> > >> > > > > > > remove Git
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at
>> 6:49 PM
>> > >> > Dmitriy
>> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual
>> digest, is
>> > >> > probably
>> > >> > > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > needed
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
>> 18:28,
>> > >> Petr
>> > >> > > > > Ivanov
>> > >> > > > > > <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira
>> notifications
>> > >> > united in
>> > >> > > > > > some
>> > >> > > > > > > kind
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > of
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add
>> special
>> > >> filter
>> > >> > > > (new
>> > >> > > > > > > tasks /
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
>> scheme?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at
>> 18:15,
>> > >> > Dmitriy
>> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
>> > >> disagree
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > > > > remove
>> > >> > > > > > > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issues
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
>> > >> understand
>> > >> > what
>> > >> > > > > > other
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > people
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > are
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always
>> can
>> > >> > comment
>> > >> > > > if
>> > >> > > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > > > is
>> > >> > > > > > > > > not
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > the
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and
>> you
>> > >> may
>> > >> > > > > suggest
>> > >> > > > > > > help.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is
>> more or
>> > >> > less
>> > >> > > > > > > duplicates
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move
>> Git's
>> > >> > messages
>> > >> > > > to
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
>> > >> > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > б>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep
>> JIRA
>> > >> and
>> > >> > test
>> > >> > > > > > > failures.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
>> > >> 17:49,
>> > >> > > > Alexey
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for
>> e-mail
>> > >> > from
>> > >> > > > JIRA
>> > >> > > > > > > (very
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without
>> visiting
>> > >> > JIRA).
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just
>> deleting
>> > >> tons
>> > >> > of
>> > >> > > > > > e-mails
>> > >> > > > > > > from
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what
>> for we
>> > >> > need
>> > >> > > > > them?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to
>> move
>> > >> > GitBox &
>> > >> > > > > > > PRs-related
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > mails
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > > > --
>> > >> > > > > > > Best regards,
>> > >> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
>> > >> > > > > > >
>> > >> > > > > >
>> > >> > > > >
>> > >> > > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > Best regards,
>> > >> > Ivan Pavlukhin
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Ivan Pavlukhin
>>
>>

[Alexey Kuznetsov]

+1 for  [hidden email]

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 6:55 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Igniters,
>
> After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> using the list.
>
> I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
> share your vision on this topic. Should it be [hidden email] or we
> should reuse [hidden email]
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Please start a vote according to
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> >
> > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> the
> > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >> >
> >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> messages,
> >> it
> >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> list,
> >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> >> >
> >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> >> creation
> >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> >> >
> >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >> >
> >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> >> > >
> >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> >> > >
> >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> [hidden email]
> >> >:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Dmitriy,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> >> create
> >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> >> filters
> >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> you
> >> want
> >> > >> to receive these emails.
> >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> emails
> >> from
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> bot.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> track
> >> new
> >> > >> tickets,
> >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> >> need
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Denis
> >> > >>
> >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Hi,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
> >> on
> >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> >> > >> > TC bot +
> >> > >> > Jira -
> >> > >> > GitHub -
> >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> >> importance
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
> >> not
> >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> >> can
> >> > >> only
> >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or
> she
> >> may
> >> > >> > think
> >> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of
> contributors
> >> who
> >> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
> >> it
> >> > >> off.
> >> > >> > We
> >> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> >> human-human
> >> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans
> (especially,
> >> > >> PMCs),
> >> > >> > so
> >> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency
> >> in
> >> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second
> >> step. Only
> >> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> [hidden email]>:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
> >> only
> >> > >> > goal.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> [hidden email]>:
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
> >> emails
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > be
> >> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> >> > >> classes: a
> >> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by
> JIRA
> >> issue
> >> > >> > > > created
> >> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
> >> review,
> >> > >> > etc, you
> >> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> >> > >> > duplicate.
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> >> > >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@
> .-
> >> PR
> >> > >> > creation
> >> > >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> >> > >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will
> >> see
> >> > >> > > > contributors
> >> > >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can
> >> discuss
> >> > >> Open
> >> > >> > ->
> >> > >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> >> > >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected.
> >> Hopefully, it
> >> > >> > will not
> >> > >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message
> >> count to
> >> > >> be
> >> > >> > as
> >> > >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here
> >> at
> >> > >> all,
> >> > >> > we
> >> > >> > > > can
> >> > >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> >> > >> > [hidden email]>:
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > Sergi
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
> >> > >> [hidden email]>:
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > Oleg,
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite
> >> interesting.
> >> > >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> > >> [hidden email]
> >> > >> > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
> >> > >> community
> >> > >> > > > > > developers
> >> > >> > > > > > > > once again.
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to
> this
> >> > >> > discussion.
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
> >> > >> [hidden email]>:
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As
> >> for
> >> > >> > JIRA, not
> >> > >> > > > > > sure
> >> > >> > > > > > > it
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up
> all
> >> the
> >> > >> > filters
> >> > >> > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > spread
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders.
> Otherwise,
> >> some
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> > us
> >> > >> > > > > might
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
> >> > >> notifications
> >> > >> > when
> >> > >> > > > > > their
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > --
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF
> >> member"
> >> > >> as a
> >> > >> > > > guide
> >> > >> > > > > > for
> >> > >> > > > > > > us.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > We
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some
> point
> >> in
> >> > >> time
> >> > >> > we
> >> > >> > > > > were
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > pointed
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has
> >> nothing
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > do
> >> > >> > > > > with
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > healthy
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to?
> Incubator
> >> > >> member
> >> > >> > are
> >> > >> > > > asf
> >> > >> > > > > > > members
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > well.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the
> >> list
> >> > >> > started
> >> > >> > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > Jira
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince
> >> me its
> >> > >> > is not
> >> > >> > > > > > > useful to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov
> <
> >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new
> tickets
> >> are
> >> > >> not
> >> > >> > > > > > forwarded?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is
> >> duplicate
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > > > jira,
> >> > >> > > > > > but
> >> > >> > > > > > > jira
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward
> all
> >> > >> > comments and
> >> > >> > > > > all
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > activity
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member
> will
> >> > >> confirm
> >> > >> > it
> >> > >> > > > is
> >> > >> > > > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > useful
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on
> >> the
> >> > >> list
> >> > >> > we
> >> > >> > > > can
> >> > >> > > > > > > continue
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for
> >> veterans
> >> > >> but
> >> > >> > for
> >> > >> > > > all
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the
> >> list.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn
> <
> >> > >> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA
> tickets
> >> are
> >> > >> very
> >> > >> > > > > useful.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all
> >> automated
> >> > >> > emails.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated
> emails
> >> > >> > completely,
> >> > >> > > > > but
> >> > >> > > > > > > dev
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > list
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir
> >> Ozerov
> >> > >> <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of
> >> generated
> >> > >> > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > community
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
> >> > >> obviously
> >> > >> > have
> >> > >> > > > > too
> >> > >> > > > > > > much
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad.
> >> But
> >> > >> > whether
> >> > >> > > > we
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > accumulate
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is
> not
> >> > >> > important at
> >> > >> > > > > > all,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > provided
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA
> >> channel.
> >> > >> And
> >> > >> > as
> >> > >> > > > far
> >> > >> > > > > as
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns
> of
> >> our
> >> > >> > mentors
> >> > >> > > > > > during
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little
> real
> >> > >> > > > > communications.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we
> >> are.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is
> >> how PMCs
> >> > >> > treat
> >> > >> > > > > all
> >> > >> > > > > > > these
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
> >> > >> problem,
> >> > >> > one
> >> > >> > > > > PMC
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > proposed
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
> >> > >> another
> >> > >> > PMC,
> >> > >> > > > > > > answered -
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > "I
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > do
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally,
> third
> >> PMC,
> >> > >> who
> >> > >> > > > also
> >> > >> > > > > > > filters
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > these
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper
> filter
> >> in
> >> > >> > GMail.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so
> >> many
> >> > >> PMC,
> >> > >> > who
> >> > >> > > > are
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > expected
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow
> >> a lot
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> > > > > > > activities,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > find
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their
> >> inboxes in
> >> > >> > order
> >> > >> > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > ...
> >> > >> > > > > > > well
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ...
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
> >> > >> veterans
> >> > >> > do
> >> > >> > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > > find
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > these
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who
> >> else can
> >> > >> > > > benefit
> >> > >> > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > them.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
> >> > >> Mekhanikov
> >> > >> > <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> >> filter.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do
> >> it.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something –
> >> write to
> >> > >> dev
> >> > >> > > > list.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to
> >> dev
> >> > >> list.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write
> to
> >> dev
> >> > >> > list.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can
> >> replace
> >> > >> any
> >> > >> > of
> >> > >> > > > > these
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > points.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a
> >> message
> >> > >> from
> >> > >> > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > bot.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA
> >> tickets
> >> > >> > should
> >> > >> > > > be
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > notified
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages
> >> to
> >> > >> > everyone.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
> >> > >> Pavlov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> >> filter.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be
> >> done by
> >> > >> > > > > > contributors
> >> > >> > > > > > > in
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > future.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are
> >> made
> >> > >> off
> >> > >> > the
> >> > >> > > > > list
> >> > >> > > > > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > just
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it
> >> really
> >> > >> signs
> >> > >> > > > poor
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight
> >> with
> >> > >> JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > > it is
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list
> >> development. If
> >> > >> we
> >> > >> > > > don't
> >> > >> > > > > > > have it,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> >> > >> > Mekhanikov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly
> and
> >> > >> > > > > > > community-friendly,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > then
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > we
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required
> >> development
> >> > >> > process.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care
> >> about
> >> > >> it.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are
> >> open for
> >> > >> > > > everyone,
> >> > >> > > > > > so
> >> > >> > > > > > > no
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate
> >> mailing
> >> > >> > list for
> >> > >> > > > > > bots.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to
> >> search
> >> > >> > > > through,
> >> > >> > > > > as
> >> > >> > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev
> >> list,
> >> > >> then
> >> > >> > > > only
> >> > >> > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > once,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > who
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email
> >> filters
> >> > >> > will see
> >> > >> > > > > it.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because
> it
> >> will
> >> > >> get
> >> > >> > > > lost
> >> > >> > > > > > > among
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in
> receiving
> >> the
> >> > >> JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > notifications,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> >> > >> > ignite-jira)
> >> > >> > > > > > > mailing
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > list,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens
> >> there. It
> >> > >> > would
> >> > >> > > > > > > simplify
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> >> > >> > corresponding
> >> > >> > > > > > > recipient.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter
> >> out all
> >> > >> > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > bots,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics,
> >> that bots
> >> > >> > may
> >> > >> > > > > > > generate.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only
> >> grows
> >> > >> > with
> >> > >> > > > > time,
> >> > >> > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > filter
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise
> >> messages
> >> > >> > will
> >> > >> > > > > spill
> >> > >> > > > > > > into
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58,
> >> Dmitriy
> >> > >> > Pavlov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision
> is
> >> the
> >> > >> > openness
> >> > >> > > > > of
> >> > >> > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
> >> > >> attention
> >> > >> > to
> >> > >> > > > run
> >> > >> > > > > > > their
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important
> >> features, and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the
> way
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >>
> >> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from
> >> the
> >> > >> list.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an
> only
> >> way
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > keep
> >> > >> > > > > > Ignite
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev.
> >> list.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> >> > >> > contributors
> >> > >> > > > > > > announce
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
> >> Now it
> >> > >> > can't.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by
> >> removing
> >> > >> > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > list?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34,
> >> Denis
> >> > >> > > > Mekhanikov
> >> > >> > > > > <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving
> automatically
> >> > >> > generated
> >> > >> > > > > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > to a
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most
> >> important
> >> > >> > ones).
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it
> here:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >>
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the
> >> Nabble
> >> > >> > portal an
> >> > >> > > > > > > absolute
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > mess
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for
> >> old
> >> > >> > > > discussions,
> >> > >> > > > > > > because
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit
> >> messages pop
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> > the
> >> > >> > > > > > search
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > results.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
> >> email
> >> > >> > filters
> >> > >> > > > > is
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > waisting
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many
> >> human-hours
> >> > >> has
> >> > >> > been
> >> > >> > > > > > > spent on
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > it.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of
> >> others,
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> > make
> >> > >> > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > separation
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
> >> > >> Dmitriy
> >> > >> > > > Pavlov
> >> > >> > > > > <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal
> >> vote
> >> > >> on
> >> > >> > this
> >> > >> > > > > > > change,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > then
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a
> separate
> >> list
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> > > > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Git
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в
> 16:08,
> >> > >> > Vladimir
> >> > >> > > > > > Ozerov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
> >> > >> filter"
> >> > >> > is
> >> > >> > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > a
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > solution.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible
> >> technically.
> >> > >> E.g.
> >> > >> > I use
> >> > >> > > > > > > GMail and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > my
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I
> >> cannot
> >> > >> > extract
> >> > >> > > > > > > generated
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > emails
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
> >> But the
> >> > >> > more
> >> > >> > > > > > > important
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > things
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs
> >> to
> >> > >> went
> >> > >> > > > through
> >> > >> > > > > > > that
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam.
> >> Looks
> >> > >> like
> >> > >> > > > > everyone
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > agrees
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > with
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation -
> >> this is
> >> > >> all
> >> > >> > > > about
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > importance.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > When
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist,
> this
> >> is
> >> > >> > likely to
> >> > >> > > > > be
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > important
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone
> >> creates
> >> > >> a
> >> > >> > > > ticket,
> >> > >> > > > > > > most
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > likely
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already
> >> discussed
> >> > >> > issue, or
> >> > >> > > > > so.
> >> > >> > > > > > In
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > other
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be
> >> interested
> >> > >> in
> >> > >> > > > manual
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
> >> > >> created"
> >> > >> > > > > messages.
> >> > >> > > > > > > Not
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important.
> >> Let's
> >> > >> > continue
> >> > >> > > > > > > disucssion
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > this.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what
> >> should be
> >> > >> > done to
> >> > >> > > > > > > remove Git
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at
> >> 6:49 PM
> >> > >> > Dmitriy
> >> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual
> >> digest, is
> >> > >> > probably
> >> > >> > > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > needed
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> >> 18:28,
> >> > >> Petr
> >> > >> > > > > Ivanov
> >> > >> > > > > > <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira
> >> notifications
> >> > >> > united in
> >> > >> > > > > > some
> >> > >> > > > > > > kind
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > of
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add
> >> special
> >> > >> filter
> >> > >> > > > (new
> >> > >> > > > > > > tasks /
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
> >> scheme?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at
> >> 18:15,
> >> > >> > Dmitriy
> >> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
> >> > >> disagree
> >> > >> > to
> >> > >> > > > > remove
> >> > >> > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issues
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
> >> > >> understand
> >> > >> > what
> >> > >> > > > > > other
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > people
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You
> always
> >> can
> >> > >> > comment
> >> > >> > > > if
> >> > >> > > > > > it
> >> > >> > > > > > > is
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > not
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue,
> and
> >> you
> >> > >> may
> >> > >> > > > > suggest
> >> > >> > > > > > > help.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is
> >> more or
> >> > >> > less
> >> > >> > > > > > > duplicates
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move
> >> Git's
> >> > >> > messages
> >> > >> > > > to
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> >> > >> > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > б>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep
> >> JIRA
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> > test
> >> > >> > > > > > > failures.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018
> г. в
> >> > >> 17:49,
> >> > >> > > > Alexey
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for
> >> e-mail
> >> > >> > from
> >> > >> > > > JIRA
> >> > >> > > > > > > (very
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without
> >> visiting
> >> > >> > JIRA).
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just
> >> deleting
> >> > >> tons
> >> > >> > of
> >> > >> > > > > > e-mails
> >> > >> > > > > > > from
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what
> >> for we
> >> > >> > need
> >> > >> > > > > them?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to
> >> move
> >> > >> > GitBox &
> >> > >> > > > > > > PRs-related
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > mails
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > > > --
> >> > >> > > > > > > Best regards,
> >> > >> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >> > >> > > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > --
> >> > >> > Best regards,
> >> > >> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best regards,
> >> Ivan Pavlukhin
> >>
> >>
>

--
Alexey Kuznetsov

[Ivan Pavlukhin]

+1 for moving JIRA notifications out of dev-list. No strict opinion
which list should be a destination for them, I am fine with both
options.

By the way Community Resources page [1] refers to 2 another lists
[hidden email] and [hidden email] (but
[hidden email] is not listed there). Does anyone know
why these lists are needed? Does anyone use any of them?

[1] https://ignite.apache.org/community/resources.html

чт, 10 янв. 2019 г. в 17:57, Alexey Kuznetsov <[hidden email]>:

>
> +1 for  [hidden email]
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 6:55 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Igniters,
> >
> > After removal of GitHub Comments from the list I have (a very subjective)
> > feeling, that there became more human-human interaction, which is
> > definitely more important that opportunity to control new JIRA tickets
> > using the list.
> >
> > I suggest coming back to the idea of moving JIRA to a separate list. Please
> > share your vision on this topic. Should it be [hidden email] or we
> > should reuse [hidden email]
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 15:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Please start a vote according to
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
> > > Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.
> > >
> > > I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from
> > the
> > > list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
> > > feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
> > > redirection, but I will not drive this topic.
> > >
> > > ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> > >> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >> >
> > >> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove
> > messages,
> > >> it
> > >> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional
> > list,
> > >> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> > >> >
> > >> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> > >> creation
> > >> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> > >> >
> > >> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > >> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > [hidden email]
> > >> >:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> > >> create
> > >> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> > >> filters
> > >> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often
> > you
> > >> want
> > >> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering
> > emails
> > >> from
> > >> > >> a
> > >> > >> bot.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to
> > track
> > >> new
> > >> > >> tickets,
> > >> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> > >> need
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Denis
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <[hidden email]>:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types
> > >> on
> > >> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> > >:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> > >> importance
> > >> > >> is
> > >> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is
> > >> not
> > >> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> > >> can
> > >> > >> only
> > >> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or
> > she
> > >> may
> > >> > >> > think
> > >> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of
> > contributors
> > >> who
> > >> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch
> > >> it
> > >> > >> off.
> > >> > >> > We
> > >> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> > >> human-human
> > >> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans
> > (especially,
> > >> > >> PMCs),
> > >> > >> > so
> > >> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency
> > >> in
> > >> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second
> > >> step. Only
> > >> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >> > >
> > >> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
> > >> only
> > >> > >> > goal.
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
> > >> emails
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> > be
> > >> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> > >> > >> classes: a
> > >> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by
> > JIRA
> > >> issue
> > >> > >> > > > created
> > >> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
> > >> review,
> > >> > >> > etc, you
> > >> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> > >> > >> > duplicate.
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> > >> > >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@
> > .-
> > >> PR
> > >> > >> > creation
> > >> > >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > >> > >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will
> > >> see
> > >> > >> > > > contributors
> > >> > >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can
> > >> discuss
> > >> > >> Open
> > >> > >> > ->
> > >> > >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > >> > >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected.
> > >> Hopefully, it
> > >> > >> > will not
> > >> > >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message
> > >> count to
> > >> > >> be
> > >> > >> > as
> > >> > >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here
> > >> at
> > >> > >> all,
> > >> > >> > we
> > >> > >> > > > can
> > >> > >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> > >> > >> > [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > >> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > Sergi
> > >> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
> > >> > >> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite
> > >> interesting.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
> > >> > >> community
> > >> > >> > > > > > developers
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > once again.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to
> > this
> > >> > >> > discussion.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
> > >> > >> [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As
> > >> for
> > >> > >> > JIRA, not
> > >> > >> > > > > > sure
> > >> > >> > > > > > > it
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up
> > all
> > >> the
> > >> > >> > filters
> > >> > >> > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > spread
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders.
> > Otherwise,
> > >> some
> > >> > >> of
> > >> > >> > us
> > >> > >> > > > > might
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
> > >> > >> notifications
> > >> > >> > when
> > >> > >> > > > > > their
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > --
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF
> > >> member"
> > >> > >> as a
> > >> > >> > > > guide
> > >> > >> > > > > > for
> > >> > >> > > > > > > us.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > We
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some
> > point
> > >> in
> > >> > >> time
> > >> > >> > we
> > >> > >> > > > > were
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > pointed
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has
> > >> nothing
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> > do
> > >> > >> > > > > with
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > healthy
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to?
> > Incubator
> > >> > >> member
> > >> > >> > are
> > >> > >> > > > asf
> > >> > >> > > > > > > members
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > well.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the
> > >> list
> > >> > >> > started
> > >> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Jira
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince
> > >> me its
> > >> > >> > is not
> > >> > >> > > > > > > useful to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov
> > <
> > >> > >> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new
> > tickets
> > >> are
> > >> > >> not
> > >> > >> > > > > > forwarded?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is
> > >> duplicate
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> > > > jira,
> > >> > >> > > > > > but
> > >> > >> > > > > > > jira
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward
> > all
> > >> > >> > comments and
> > >> > >> > > > > all
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > activity
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member
> > will
> > >> > >> confirm
> > >> > >> > it
> > >> > >> > > > is
> > >> > >> > > > > > not
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > useful
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on
> > >> the
> > >> > >> list
> > >> > >> > we
> > >> > >> > > > can
> > >> > >> > > > > > > continue
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for
> > >> veterans
> > >> > >> but
> > >> > >> > for
> > >> > >> > > > all
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the
> > >> list.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn
> > <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > [hidden email]>:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA
> > tickets
> > >> are
> > >> > >> very
> > >> > >> > > > > useful.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all
> > >> automated
> > >> > >> > emails.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated
> > emails
> > >> > >> > completely,
> > >> > >> > > > > but
> > >> > >> > > > > > > dev
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > list
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir
> > >> Ozerov
> > >> > >> <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of
> > >> generated
> > >> > >> > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
> > >> > >> obviously
> > >> > >> > have
> > >> > >> > > > > too
> > >> > >> > > > > > > much
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad.
> > >> But
> > >> > >> > whether
> > >> > >> > > > we
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > accumulate
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is
> > not
> > >> > >> > important at
> > >> > >> > > > > > all,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > provided
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA
> > >> channel.
> > >> > >> And
> > >> > >> > as
> > >> > >> > > > far
> > >> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns
> > of
> > >> our
> > >> > >> > mentors
> > >> > >> > > > > > during
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little
> > real
> > >> > >> > > > > communications.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we
> > >> are.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is
> > >> how PMCs
> > >> > >> > treat
> > >> > >> > > > > all
> > >> > >> > > > > > > these
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
> > >> > >> problem,
> > >> > >> > one
> > >> > >> > > > > PMC
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > proposed
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
> > >> > >> another
> > >> > >> > PMC,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > answered -
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > "I
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally,
> > third
> > >> PMC,
> > >> > >> who
> > >> > >> > > > also
> > >> > >> > > > > > > filters
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > these
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper
> > filter
> > >> in
> > >> > >> > GMail.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so
> > >> many
> > >> > >> PMC,
> > >> > >> > who
> > >> > >> > > > are
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > expected
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow
> > >> a lot
> > >> > >> of
> > >> > >> > > > > > > activities,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > find
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their
> > >> inboxes in
> > >> > >> > order
> > >> > >> > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > ...
> > >> > >> > > > > > > well
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
> > >> > >> veterans
> > >> > >> > do
> > >> > >> > > > not
> > >> > >> > > > > > find
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > these
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who
> > >> else can
> > >> > >> > > > benefit
> > >> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > them.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
> > >> > >> Mekhanikov
> > >> > >> > <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> > >> filter.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do
> > >> it.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something –
> > >> write to
> > >> > >> dev
> > >> > >> > > > list.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to
> > >> dev
> > >> > >> list.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write
> > to
> > >> dev
> > >> > >> > list.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can
> > >> replace
> > >> > >> any
> > >> > >> > of
> > >> > >> > > > > these
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > points.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a
> > >> message
> > >> > >> from
> > >> > >> > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > bot.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA
> > >> tickets
> > >> > >> > should
> > >> > >> > > > be
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > notified
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages
> > >> to
> > >> > >> > everyone.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
> > >> > >> Pavlov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> > >> filter.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be
> > >> done by
> > >> > >> > > > > > contributors
> > >> > >> > > > > > > in
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > future.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are
> > >> made
> > >> > >> off
> > >> > >> > the
> > >> > >> > > > > list
> > >> > >> > > > > > > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > just
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it
> > >> really
> > >> > >> signs
> > >> > >> > > > poor
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight
> > >> with
> > >> > >> JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > > it is
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list
> > >> development. If
> > >> > >> we
> > >> > >> > > > don't
> > >> > >> > > > > > > have it,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> > >> > >> > Mekhanikov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly
> > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > community-friendly,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > then
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required
> > >> development
> > >> > >> > process.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care
> > >> about
> > >> > >> it.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are
> > >> open for
> > >> > >> > > > everyone,
> > >> > >> > > > > > so
> > >> > >> > > > > > > no
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate
> > >> mailing
> > >> > >> > list for
> > >> > >> > > > > > bots.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to
> > >> search
> > >> > >> > > > through,
> > >> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev
> > >> list,
> > >> > >> then
> > >> > >> > > > only
> > >> > >> > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > once,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > who
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email
> > >> filters
> > >> > >> > will see
> > >> > >> > > > > it.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because
> > it
> > >> will
> > >> > >> get
> > >> > >> > > > lost
> > >> > >> > > > > > > among
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in
> > receiving
> > >> the
> > >> > >> JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > notifications,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> > >> > >> > ignite-jira)
> > >> > >> > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > list,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens
> > >> there. It
> > >> > >> > would
> > >> > >> > > > > > > simplify
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> > >> > >> > corresponding
> > >> > >> > > > > > > recipient.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter
> > >> out all
> > >> > >> > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > bots,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics,
> > >> that bots
> > >> > >> > may
> > >> > >> > > > > > > generate.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only
> > >> grows
> > >> > >> > with
> > >> > >> > > > > time,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > filter
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise
> > >> messages
> > >> > >> > will
> > >> > >> > > > > spill
> > >> > >> > > > > > > into
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58,
> > >> Dmitriy
> > >> > >> > Pavlov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision
> > is
> > >> the
> > >> > >> > openness
> > >> > >> > > > > of
> > >> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
> > >> > >> attention
> > >> > >> > to
> > >> > >> > > > run
> > >> > >> > > > > > > their
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important
> > >> features, and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the
> > way
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >>
> > >> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from
> > >> the
> > >> > >> list.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an
> > only
> > >> way
> > >> > >> to
> > >> > >> > keep
> > >> > >> > > > > > Ignite
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev.
> > >> list.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> > >> > >> > contributors
> > >> > >> > > > > > > announce
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
> > >> Now it
> > >> > >> > can't.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by
> > >> removing
> > >> > >> > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > list?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34,
> > >> Denis
> > >> > >> > > > Mekhanikov
> > >> > >> > > > > <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving
> > automatically
> > >> > >> > generated
> > >> > >> > > > > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > to a
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most
> > >> important
> > >> > >> > ones).
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it
> > here:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >>
> > >>
> > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the
> > >> Nabble
> > >> > >> > portal an
> > >> > >> > > > > > > absolute
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > mess
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for
> > >> old
> > >> > >> > > > discussions,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > because
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit
> > >> messages pop
> > >> > >> in
> > >> > >> > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > search
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > results.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
> > >> email
> > >> > >> > filters
> > >> > >> > > > > is
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > waisting
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many
> > >> human-hours
> > >> > >> has
> > >> > >> > been
> > >> > >> > > > > > > spent on
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > it.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of
> > >> others,
> > >> > >> and
> > >> > >> > make
> > >> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > separation
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
> > >> > >> Dmitriy
> > >> > >> > > > Pavlov
> > >> > >> > > > > <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal
> > >> vote
> > >> > >> on
> > >> > >> > this
> > >> > >> > > > > > > change,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > then
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a
> > separate
> > >> list
> > >> > >> for
> > >> > >> > > > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Git
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в
> > 16:08,
> > >> > >> > Vladimir
> > >> > >> > > > > > Ozerov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
> > >> > >> filter"
> > >> > >> > is
> > >> > >> > > > not
> > >> > >> > > > > a
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > solution.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible
> > >> technically.
> > >> > >> E.g.
> > >> > >> > I use
> > >> > >> > > > > > > GMail and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > my
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I
> > >> cannot
> > >> > >> > extract
> > >> > >> > > > > > > generated
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
> > >> But the
> > >> > >> > more
> > >> > >> > > > > > > important
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > things
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs
> > >> to
> > >> > >> went
> > >> > >> > > > through
> > >> > >> > > > > > > that
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam.
> > >> Looks
> > >> > >> like
> > >> > >> > > > > everyone
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > agrees
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation -
> > >> this is
> > >> > >> all
> > >> > >> > > > about
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > importance.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > When
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist,
> > this
> > >> is
> > >> > >> > likely to
> > >> > >> > > > > be
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone
> > >> creates
> > >> > >> a
> > >> > >> > > > ticket,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > most
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > likely
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already
> > >> discussed
> > >> > >> > issue, or
> > >> > >> > > > > so.
> > >> > >> > > > > > In
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > other
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be
> > >> interested
> > >> > >> in
> > >> > >> > > > manual
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
> > >> > >> created"
> > >> > >> > > > > messages.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Not
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
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> > >> Let's
> > >> > >> > continue
> > >> > >> > > > > > > disucssion
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what
> > >> should be
> > >> > >> > done to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > remove Git
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at
> > >> 6:49 PM
> > >> > >> > Dmitriy
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual
> > >> digest, is
> > >> > >> > probably
> > >> > >> > > > > not
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > needed
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> > >> 18:28,
> > >> > >> Petr
> > >> > >> > > > > Ivanov
> > >> > >> > > > > > <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira
> > >> notifications
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> > >> > >> > > > > > some
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add
> > >> special
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> > >> > >> > > > (new
> > >> > >> > > > > > > tasks /
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at
> > >> 18:15,
> > >> > >> > Dmitriy
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
> > >> > >> disagree
> > >> > >> > to
> > >> > >> > > > > remove
> > >> > >> > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issues
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
> > >> > >> understand
> > >> > >> > what
> > >> > >> > > > > > other
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > people
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You
> > always
> > >> can
> > >> > >> > comment
> > >> > >> > > > if
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > is
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > not
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue,
> > and
> > >> you
> > >> > >> may
> > >> > >> > > > > suggest
> > >> > >> > > > > > > help.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is
> > >> more or
> > >> > >> > less
> > >> > >> > > > > > > duplicates
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move
> > >> Git's
> > >> > >> > messages
> > >> > >> > > > to
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > >> > >> > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > б>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep
> > >> JIRA
> > >> > >> and
> > >> > >> > test
> > >> > >> > > > > > > failures.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018
> > г. в
> > >> > >> 17:49,
> > >> > >> > > > Alexey
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for
> > >> e-mail
> > >> > >> > from
> > >> > >> > > > JIRA
> > >> > >> > > > > > > (very
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
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> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without
> > >> visiting
> > >> > >> > JIRA).
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just
> > >> deleting
> > >> > >> tons
> > >> > >> > of
> > >> > >> > > > > > e-mails
> > >> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what
> > >> for we
> > >> > >> > need
> > >> > >> > > > > them?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to
> > >> move
> > >> > >> > GitBox &
> > >> > >> > > > > > > PRs-related
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > mails
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > > > --
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > >> > >> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > >> > > > >
> > >> > >> > > >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > --
> > >> > >> > Best regards,
> > >> > >> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Best regards,
> > >> Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexey Kuznetsov

--
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin

[Alexey Kuznetsov]

I'm using  [hidden email] to track who and what commits to
master :)

--
Alexey Kuznetsov